Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Thumbing through the latest articles on Sam Alito, I came across one by Jonathan Rosenblum (amazing what google will return with a search on key words).  This article was a little bit about Alito, but mostly it was about one man's observations of going from Liberal to Conservative in his life's journey.

Rosenblum was not always conservative as he details, in fact probably back in the 60s, he was (in his words) one of the last to don a suit.  But over time, he has gone from Ideologue to realist, and the sad part, lost many of his friends in the process.  They just could not stomach his conversion.

But the fascinating part of his trip down memory lane, was in how he describes the fact that conservatives are a minority on most Ivy League Campuses.  And being a minority, they look around and realize that there are smart people who do not believe as they do, so they have to adjust to the fact that they are not going to win debates by yelling louder, but by debating better.  And they learn to craft their arguments so that they can at least engage others in their beliefs.

Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises.

While I have not made a life long study of debating skills of liberals versus conservatives, it does not take one long, to even a casual observer, that this tendency in college, carries over into later life.  We have seen many instances of a liberal, challenged in their beliefs, resort to name calling (and some conservatives, I will grant) and what in essence amounts to yelling here on both JU and the Internet in general.

Many of us love to pop over to democratunderground.org on occasion to check out the latest rantings there.  For that is what it truly is.  Simple rantings.  And who has not heard of the Daily KOS where anyone left of Mao Tse Tung is branded a right wing firebrand (with of course no rationalization other than a betrayal of their liberal beliefs).

This is not to say that liberals cannot be good debaters.  Just that, as a general rule (and we know about the exceptions), Liberals tend to use inflammatory rhetoric instead of reasoned logic in their disagreements.  We have all been invited to share in the 'debates' of recent years, where the conservatives are going to starve the children, ban blacks to the back of the bus, and kick old people out into the cold streets.  None of these charges have any basis in fact, but they make for good 30 second sound bites, and so the liberals use them with a regularity that makes ex-lax look tame in comparison.

The quote "Anyone who is not a liberal before 30 has no heart, and anyone who is not a conservative after 40 has no brain" has been attributed to many people, most recently by Winston Churchill.  But it is true that youth is an idealistic times for many, who feel, instead of know.  So the young do tend to be more liberal than the elder citizens.  So anyone who "has no heart", must learn early that they are not in the majority in their opinions, and thus seek to persuade others to their point of view through calm and reasoned logic.  The exact ingredients that a good debater needs.

But liberals are not exposed to that kind of cross pollination all the time.  Just look at du.org?  You can post anything you want there, as long as you do not dis another liberal.  Period.  Kind of narrow minded to me, and myopic.  They are welcome to wallow in their isolation and ignorance, for it is a free country.  But they are only depriving themselves of both debating and social skills needed to function in a society that is not homogeneous.


Comments (Page 4)
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on Dec 09, 2005

even tho you'll find no syllogisms here, the linked content goes a long way toward yanking the rug right out from under drguy's rather opinionated premise.

ONe can always find exceptions, and I admitted that.  So your link is hardly refutation, or even on topic.  If you try hard enough, I am sure you can find many more exceptions as well.

And for the record, it is Jonathan Rosenblum's premise, and my opinion that he is right.

on Dec 09, 2005

Vidal: "the only pro or crypto-Nazi here is yourself."

Buckley: "Now listen, you queer, you stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I'll sock you in the goddamn face and you'll stay plastered

Well, that does prove one point of mine.  The first to start the name calling, was the liberal.

on Dec 09, 2005
OMG, that exchange never gets any less funny...
on Dec 09, 2005

[...] until you realize that the funding will be taken from the pockets of wage earners who worked to help themselves,


That's not the only thing.

It's also easier to be "against war" than it is to find a solution that stops Saddam from murdering Shi'ites and Kurds.

It's easier to be "for Palestine" than it is to guarantee that the Arabs won't kill all the Jews if given the chance again.

It's easier to call for moderation than to make murderers angry at you.

It's easier to call for a diplomatic solution than to maintain and train an excellent army.

It's easier to call for free AIDS medicines for poor people than it is to fund development of such medicines.

It's easier to call your opponents "fascists" than it is not to take the same position as David Duke towards Arab nationalism.

It's easier to call a terrorist a "freedom fighter" than it is to become one of his targets (although they still will become targets).

And finally, and this is one point where I can agree, it is easier to be against Bush than it is to support Kerry.
on Dec 09, 2005

And finally, and this is one point where I can agree, it is easier to be against Bush than it is to support Kerry.

Basically, it is easy to be a democrat these days, since they are against everything, and for nothing.

on Dec 09, 2005

Basically, it is easy to be a democrat these days, since they are against everything, and for nothing.


Yes, you completely got my statement!

When I move to Canada, I'll join the Tories. And then I can join my friend Hakim (http://arabiandissent.blogspot.com/) among the Tory bloggers.

Then my transformation from a supporter of the Greens to a conservative will be over.

(Now I only have to find my son... I hope they hid him in my home town!)
on Dec 09, 2005
That's not the only thing.


Andrew, the more I read of your stuff the more I like. You get a cookie!
on Dec 09, 2005

Andrew, the more I read of your stuff the more I like. You get a cookie!


I try to please.
on Dec 09, 2005

Then my transformation from a supporter of the Greens to a conservative will be over.

You were a green?  Welcome to the dark side!

on Dec 09, 2005

Andrew, the more I read of your stuff the more I like. You get a cookie!

He is very good, and brings a refreshing non-American perspective to a discussion.  Without the anti American Rhetoric.

on Dec 09, 2005

You were a green?


No. Never.

I was a member of the German Liberal Democrats once. I _voted_ Green once, in 1998.

In 1988 I was a (child) supporter of the Green party in West-Berlin because they promised AND delivered cheaper and less complicated public transport tickets and special bus lines on the road. I still support these positions.
on Dec 09, 2005

In 1988 I was a (child) supporter of the Green party in West-Berlin because they promised AND delivered cheaper and less complicated public transport tickets and special bus lines on the road. I still support these positions.

Most politics are driven by self interest.

on Dec 09, 2005

Most politics are driven by self interest.


It also changed traffic patterns. Without this reducation in traffic the open borders in late '89 could have been even more of a traffic planning disaster. I was and am still impressed that the Green party in Berlin at the time ran on this platform, won, and immediately implemented what they had promised. That made me interested in politics, because it demonstrated that elections can change things.

The policy meant less traffic, easier commutes, and less complicated fare systems.

What I also supported but now regret that I did was the same parties' opposition to the liberation of Kuwait. How these people could support the fascists' claim to Kuwait is still beyond me. When I was a child I also screamed "no blood for oil". I am now sorry for that.

I have grown up.
on Dec 09, 2005

What I also supported but now regret that I did was the same parties' opposition to the liberation of Kuwait. How these people could support the fascists' claim to Kuwait is still beyond me. When I was a child I also screamed "no blood for oil". I am now sorry for that.

I have grown up.

Yes you have.  Winston Churchill would be proud.

on Dec 09, 2005
In 1988 I was a (child) supporter of the Green party in West-Berlin because they promised AND delivered cheaper and less complicated public transport tickets and special bus lines on the road. I still support these positions.


wow. How about supporting a public transportation system that actually turns a PROFIT rather than being a drain on taxpayer's income and is privately financed (I believe it could be done....both commerce and industry have a compelling interest in TRANSPORTING people to their locations, and would probably be more than willing to pony up with the right presentation).
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