Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Thumbing through the latest articles on Sam Alito, I came across one by Jonathan Rosenblum (amazing what google will return with a search on key words).  This article was a little bit about Alito, but mostly it was about one man's observations of going from Liberal to Conservative in his life's journey.

Rosenblum was not always conservative as he details, in fact probably back in the 60s, he was (in his words) one of the last to don a suit.  But over time, he has gone from Ideologue to realist, and the sad part, lost many of his friends in the process.  They just could not stomach his conversion.

But the fascinating part of his trip down memory lane, was in how he describes the fact that conservatives are a minority on most Ivy League Campuses.  And being a minority, they look around and realize that there are smart people who do not believe as they do, so they have to adjust to the fact that they are not going to win debates by yelling louder, but by debating better.  And they learn to craft their arguments so that they can at least engage others in their beliefs.

Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises.

While I have not made a life long study of debating skills of liberals versus conservatives, it does not take one long, to even a casual observer, that this tendency in college, carries over into later life.  We have seen many instances of a liberal, challenged in their beliefs, resort to name calling (and some conservatives, I will grant) and what in essence amounts to yelling here on both JU and the Internet in general.

Many of us love to pop over to democratunderground.org on occasion to check out the latest rantings there.  For that is what it truly is.  Simple rantings.  And who has not heard of the Daily KOS where anyone left of Mao Tse Tung is branded a right wing firebrand (with of course no rationalization other than a betrayal of their liberal beliefs).

This is not to say that liberals cannot be good debaters.  Just that, as a general rule (and we know about the exceptions), Liberals tend to use inflammatory rhetoric instead of reasoned logic in their disagreements.  We have all been invited to share in the 'debates' of recent years, where the conservatives are going to starve the children, ban blacks to the back of the bus, and kick old people out into the cold streets.  None of these charges have any basis in fact, but they make for good 30 second sound bites, and so the liberals use them with a regularity that makes ex-lax look tame in comparison.

The quote "Anyone who is not a liberal before 30 has no heart, and anyone who is not a conservative after 40 has no brain" has been attributed to many people, most recently by Winston Churchill.  But it is true that youth is an idealistic times for many, who feel, instead of know.  So the young do tend to be more liberal than the elder citizens.  So anyone who "has no heart", must learn early that they are not in the majority in their opinions, and thus seek to persuade others to their point of view through calm and reasoned logic.  The exact ingredients that a good debater needs.

But liberals are not exposed to that kind of cross pollination all the time.  Just look at du.org?  You can post anything you want there, as long as you do not dis another liberal.  Period.  Kind of narrow minded to me, and myopic.  They are welcome to wallow in their isolation and ignorance, for it is a free country.  But they are only depriving themselves of both debating and social skills needed to function in a society that is not homogeneous.


Comments (Page 5)
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on Dec 09, 2005

How about supporting a public transportation system that actually turns a PROFIT rather than being a drain on taxpayer's income and is privately financed (I believe it could be done....both commerce and industry have a compelling interest in TRANSPORTING people to their locations, and would probably be more than willing to pony up with the right presentation).


How would that take into account the cost of streets and the relative devaluation of a street by cars and busses respectively?

Who would pay for the value of open streets (fewer traffic jams)?

How would you deal with the problem of the natural monopoly (there is only one shortest way between two points, hence there is only one railroad between A and B that makes sense)?

Do current petrol taxes or levies pay for the existing street system or do other taxes pay for them?

How would we charge polluters for the falling of property values due to smog?

How would we charge them for the increased health risks?

Nobody has an interest in financing a transport system, which is why governments had to do it. Everybody profits from streets and railroads in a city, but nobody would want to be the first to pay for them.
on Dec 09, 2005
Nobody has an interest in financing a transport system, which is why governments had to do it.


Frankly, it's not the government's job. If the people of a community really want to live in third world conditions, let 'em. If they want cleaner, safer transportation, they should find ways to pay for them and make them profitable.

Frankly, legislation from the LEFT has driven the cost of public transit UP, not down. So many costs must be factored in to BUILD a bus, let alone put it on the street carrying passengers. Less regulation would decrease these costs and make profitability more likely
on Dec 09, 2005

it's not the government's job.


That's opinion, not an established fact.

And less regulation does not always make everything cheaper. For example phone calls were more expensive in Germany when they started deregulation.

I have never seen a privately owned public transportation system work better than a government-owned public transportation system. And I have seen both.

In fact I use a privately-owned tram every day here in Dublin and compared to what Berlin had to offer the Irish Luas is a joke. It breaks down once a week, the tickets are expensive, you cannot buy them everywhere but only in three specific shops or from machines (which are often broken). The displays on the stops constantly display "display out of order" (and could almost certainly be replaced with wooden signs saying "display would be out of order"). The company who built the Luas and now runs out was over budget several times (and wouldn't have built the Luas without government subsidies in the first place).

However, the Luas did allow for fewer traffic jams, shorter commute times, and was well-received by the public.

We can put it to the test though.

I have experience dealing with German banks (excellent, quick service) and Irish banks (terrible and slow service, uneducated employees). Find out which bank system is more regulated and you will have an answer.
on Dec 09, 2005
That's opinion, not an established fact.


Actually, in America, as regards the FEDERAL government, all one has to do is read the Constitution to see where it's not the government's job. And when one considers that it is often FEDERAL funds building MUNICIPAL transit systems, then, I'd say the tenth amendment pretty much covers it.

Of course, the public run systems run better. But they cost MUCH more. With an unlimited expense account, who COULDN'T provide fast service. But that fast service is bankrupting our nation! Efficiency is judged by the value of one's expenditure among other things, and by that standard, these transit systems are anything BUT efficient.

Fact is, the Texas Panhandle has less public transportation than KENYA!
on Dec 09, 2005
And I'm off topic. Go ahead and have the last word, if you wish. I've hijacked Guy's thread long enough...lol
on Dec 09, 2005

wow. How about supporting a public transportation system that actually turns a PROFIT rather than being a drain on taxpayer's income and is privately financed

Whew!  For a minute there, I thought I was in the twilight zone since I just read your Mass Transit thread!

on Dec 09, 2005

Of course, the public run systems run better. But they cost MUCH more. With an unlimited expense account, who COULDN'T provide fast service.


I don't know if the trams in Berlin cost more than the Luas. I can find out, I think.
on Dec 09, 2005
Dr. Guy-

This article is a great thread. I think you are right on when you say it is easy to be a democrat because they are against everything and for nothing. I think this is the most important point in all of this article. I'm a democrat still, but I think I know a bit more about what I expect of my party and the direction I think they need to head. I don't think the democratic party should be a catch all for people that don't have their own beliefs/morals or expectations of their government. These people often don't even end up voting anyway!!!

Hmmm... thanks for a great thread on this topic!
on Dec 09, 2005

I'm a democrat still, but I think I know a bit more about what I expect of my party and the direction I think they need to head.

It is people like you that need to take control of your party back, and give the rest of us a viable 2 party system.  As it is, on a presidential level at least, they no longer talk of what will be, but of how bad we are.  And in truth, no one wants to hear that.  When they start speaking of vision and a plan, then I know I will have a choice for president again.

on Dec 10, 2005
So your link is hardly refutation, or even on topic.


only if the topic is not really about an assertion members of one side are more restrained, unemotional, reasonable and civil than the other. seeing and hearing two of 20th century america's most eloquent exponents of the opposing sides in question go total batshit on live network tv could hardly be more relevant.
on Dec 10, 2005
At least I think Buckley could back up his batshit. Vidal would just harass you with hyperbole, or molest you with metaphor...
on Dec 10, 2005
At least I think Buckley could back up his batshit. Vidal would just harass you with hyperbole, or molest you with metaphor...


How I saw that excerpt was that Gore Vidal was doing the baiting. And Bill Buckley took it. And took some more...
I could certainly be wrong, since I was just reading a small section of the broadcast and I didn't actually watch it. Or hear their voices. Or facial expressions/body language...
on Dec 10, 2005
meh, Vidal was just being himself. He had already told the host/moderator to shut up. I've got an mpg of the exchange around here somewhere, probably the one that Kingbee linked. It's a conversation you could parse and put in the mouths of people right now and you'd never be able to tell the difference.
on Dec 10, 2005
No, you could tell the difference... no one uses that level of diction or vocabulary these days in the mainstream media. Shame really.
on Dec 10, 2005
OMG, that exchange never gets any less funny


it was, quite honestly, about the only relief in what was an otherwise painfully grim and disturbingly dark week altho as it played out in the moment, it seemed to me less amusing than another symptom of a rapidly spreading pathology.

by the time things settled back to a dull roar, i was already doin my interpretation of both them loons and laffin myself sick. the real bonus tho was altho i mighta missed seeing ruby blasting oswald by just a few seconds (apparently i appeared to be malingering in front of the tv solely to avoid gettin my ass outside and chipping ice off the walk, thus prompting my father to not very gently help me make my exit), for once i'd been in the right place at the right time.
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