Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Thumbing through the latest articles on Sam Alito, I came across one by Jonathan Rosenblum (amazing what google will return with a search on key words).  This article was a little bit about Alito, but mostly it was about one man's observations of going from Liberal to Conservative in his life's journey.

Rosenblum was not always conservative as he details, in fact probably back in the 60s, he was (in his words) one of the last to don a suit.  But over time, he has gone from Ideologue to realist, and the sad part, lost many of his friends in the process.  They just could not stomach his conversion.

But the fascinating part of his trip down memory lane, was in how he describes the fact that conservatives are a minority on most Ivy League Campuses.  And being a minority, they look around and realize that there are smart people who do not believe as they do, so they have to adjust to the fact that they are not going to win debates by yelling louder, but by debating better.  And they learn to craft their arguments so that they can at least engage others in their beliefs.

Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises.

While I have not made a life long study of debating skills of liberals versus conservatives, it does not take one long, to even a casual observer, that this tendency in college, carries over into later life.  We have seen many instances of a liberal, challenged in their beliefs, resort to name calling (and some conservatives, I will grant) and what in essence amounts to yelling here on both JU and the Internet in general.

Many of us love to pop over to democratunderground.org on occasion to check out the latest rantings there.  For that is what it truly is.  Simple rantings.  And who has not heard of the Daily KOS where anyone left of Mao Tse Tung is branded a right wing firebrand (with of course no rationalization other than a betrayal of their liberal beliefs).

This is not to say that liberals cannot be good debaters.  Just that, as a general rule (and we know about the exceptions), Liberals tend to use inflammatory rhetoric instead of reasoned logic in their disagreements.  We have all been invited to share in the 'debates' of recent years, where the conservatives are going to starve the children, ban blacks to the back of the bus, and kick old people out into the cold streets.  None of these charges have any basis in fact, but they make for good 30 second sound bites, and so the liberals use them with a regularity that makes ex-lax look tame in comparison.

The quote "Anyone who is not a liberal before 30 has no heart, and anyone who is not a conservative after 40 has no brain" has been attributed to many people, most recently by Winston Churchill.  But it is true that youth is an idealistic times for many, who feel, instead of know.  So the young do tend to be more liberal than the elder citizens.  So anyone who "has no heart", must learn early that they are not in the majority in their opinions, and thus seek to persuade others to their point of view through calm and reasoned logic.  The exact ingredients that a good debater needs.

But liberals are not exposed to that kind of cross pollination all the time.  Just look at du.org?  You can post anything you want there, as long as you do not dis another liberal.  Period.  Kind of narrow minded to me, and myopic.  They are welcome to wallow in their isolation and ignorance, for it is a free country.  But they are only depriving themselves of both debating and social skills needed to function in a society that is not homogeneous.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 08, 2005
Most older people that I know have declared their more youthful days to be extremely 'liberal' and have noted an increased turn to 'conservativism' as they've grown older.

I'm certain much of this has to do with age and their desire for a status quo they feel is appropriate. I'm also certain that with experience dealing with the English language, arguments, and general knowledge they are much more articulate debaters to a particular degree.

On the flipside, I've noted that many who ascribe to 'conservativism' at an early age is reflectant of their inability to grow and accept, experience, or experiment with new ideas and concepts. These people often stay somewhat inert throughout their life and do not continue to develop their already decided outlook on the intracies of life in general.

I've visited DU.org a few times a while back, but because of their closed-mindedness, it was near-torture to see the mirror image of young conservatives.
on Dec 08, 2005
Well, when a leading Democrat blasts Rush Limbaugh with the charge of being a "draft dodging donut eater" (a public statement from John Kerry who was careful to remind everyone of his status of "decorated war hero", a status that apparently confers omniscience), then how are we to expect debating skills among the left to improve? Their very leaders are engaged in ad hominem attacks against their opponents, while many leading Republicans focus their arguments on the issues, where they SHOULD be focused.
on Dec 08, 2005
Could it be that they spell titles correctly?
on Dec 08, 2005

It's easier to be a liberal. All you have to do is care about things deeply.  It requires considerably more thought to have to take the "Bad guy" position on many issues.

The problem with liberal ideology is that it has slowly become the ideology of warm fuzzy thoughts.

on Dec 08, 2005
It's easier to be a liberal. All you have to do is care about things deeply. It requires considerably more thought to have to take the "Bad guy" position on many issues.


Excellent point, Brad...and true. I hadn't thought of it before, but a good example of this is welfare spending. From a "warm, fuzzy" perspective, it all sounds well and good...until you realize that the funding will be taken from the pockets of wage earners who worked to help themselves, and that welfare creates a culture of dependence, idleness, and crime.
on Dec 08, 2005
It requires considerably more thought to have to take the "Bad guy" position on many issues.


It also takes more energy to demonize your enemy.
Make him suffer for his thought-crime.
Degrade him, wear him down with incessant calls for his resignation/impeachment/removal from power.
Try everything in your arsenal to destroy and discredit the bastard. The more inflammatory, the better.
on Dec 08, 2005
Goodness sakes fellows, one is going to think that a person debating the position that they agree with is a better debater.

Someone's ideology has less to do with skill in debating than whether the audience agrees with them or not.

Conservative arguments (to me) seem at times contradictory. I also feel that the arguments come across as rationalizations for unwise decisions or stances.

Is it because conservatives are poor debaters? No. I am sure that they preach to the choir as well as progressives can.
on Dec 08, 2005

I've visited DU.org a few times a while back, but because of their closed-mindedness, it was near-torture to see the mirror image of young conservatives.

Well, that is one way to look at them!  I just find it funny they dont let a few conservatives in so that they can actually have something to sink their teeth into!  Instead of just rending their clothes.

on Dec 08, 2005

Well, when a leading Democrat blasts Rush Limbaugh with the charge of being a "draft dodging donut eater" (a public statement from John Kerry who was careful to remind everyone of his status of "decorated war hero", a status that apparently confers omniscience), then how are we to expect debating skills among the left to improve?

The funny thing about that, and what Kerry does not even realize, is that he lost as soon as he attacked Rush Limbaugh!  Attacking a political opponent is something we have come to expect from politicians.  But when you attack those who are not in the political arena you are conferring legitimacy to their statements.

on Dec 08, 2005

Could it be that they spell titles correctly?

Not this one!

on Dec 08, 2005

It's easier to be a liberal. All you have to do is care about things deeply. It requires considerably more thought to have to take the "Bad guy" position on many issues.

True.  As a parent, you have to learn about tough love.  You cannot always be yoru child's best friend, or you are cheating the child.  Liberals cannot be the heavy, they always strive to do the warm fuzzy, regardless of whether it is feasible or not.

on Dec 08, 2005

From a "warm, fuzzy" perspective, it all sounds well and good...until you realize that the funding will be taken from the pockets of wage earners who worked to help themselves, and that welfare creates a culture of dependence, idleness, and crime

I think the second part is the more important one. For while we all want to help the person who is down on their luck, conservatives dont want them to become dependent upon it.  As I have heard said, give a hand up, not a hand out.

on Dec 08, 2005
Well, that is one way to look at them! I just find it funny they dont let a few conservatives in so that they can actually have something to sink their teeth into! Instead of just rending their clothes.

The site seems to serve as an outlet for it's members to share like-minded rants and do anything but celebrate 'diversity' or, at least,diverse thought. Incredibly anti-productive on their part.

Someone's ideology has less to do with skill in debating than whether the audience agrees with them or not.

Agreed.

Is it because conservatives are poor debaters? No. I am sure that they preach to the choir as well as progressives can.

Agreed.

Their very leaders are engaged in ad hominem attacks against their opponents, while many leading Republicans focus their arguments on the issues

Kripes, Gid., surely that isn't a door that violently swings both ways! I would agree that, in all, there are less ad hominem attacks by Republican leaders but not by far...
on Dec 08, 2005

It also takes more energy to demonize your enemy.
Make him suffer for his thought-crime.
Degrade him, wear him down with incessant calls for his resignation/impeachment/removal from power.
Try everything in your arsenal to destroy and discredit the bastard. The more inflammatory, the better.

In the personna of everyone, there is a Yin and Yang.  Since liberals cant use both when it comes to 'feeling' about issues, they use the other part in the political debate.

on Dec 08, 2005
Goodness sakes fellows, one is going to think that a person debating the position that they agree with is a better debater.
Someone's ideology has less to do with skill in debating than whether the audience agrees with them or not.


Not exactly: I remember my time on the high school speech and debate team, and I had to invent contrary positions to each and every potential topic at the meet. It was a challenge, especially when I had a definite opinion one way or the other.
Skill in debate means having a rational, cogent argument, whichever side it is on.

Conservative arguments (to me) seem at times contradictory. I also feel that the arguments come across as rationalizations for unwise decisions or stances.


Absolutely, especially in light of recent events. For example, I feel that Cheney's attempts to put a positive light on torture are a way of covering the administration's collective ass. They are extremely transparent.
But the point of the article, the art of the debate, means not stooping to name calling or demonizing.
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