Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Thumbing through the latest articles on Sam Alito, I came across one by Jonathan Rosenblum (amazing what google will return with a search on key words).  This article was a little bit about Alito, but mostly it was about one man's observations of going from Liberal to Conservative in his life's journey.

Rosenblum was not always conservative as he details, in fact probably back in the 60s, he was (in his words) one of the last to don a suit.  But over time, he has gone from Ideologue to realist, and the sad part, lost many of his friends in the process.  They just could not stomach his conversion.

But the fascinating part of his trip down memory lane, was in how he describes the fact that conservatives are a minority on most Ivy League Campuses.  And being a minority, they look around and realize that there are smart people who do not believe as they do, so they have to adjust to the fact that they are not going to win debates by yelling louder, but by debating better.  And they learn to craft their arguments so that they can at least engage others in their beliefs.

Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises.

While I have not made a life long study of debating skills of liberals versus conservatives, it does not take one long, to even a casual observer, that this tendency in college, carries over into later life.  We have seen many instances of a liberal, challenged in their beliefs, resort to name calling (and some conservatives, I will grant) and what in essence amounts to yelling here on both JU and the Internet in general.

Many of us love to pop over to democratunderground.org on occasion to check out the latest rantings there.  For that is what it truly is.  Simple rantings.  And who has not heard of the Daily KOS where anyone left of Mao Tse Tung is branded a right wing firebrand (with of course no rationalization other than a betrayal of their liberal beliefs).

This is not to say that liberals cannot be good debaters.  Just that, as a general rule (and we know about the exceptions), Liberals tend to use inflammatory rhetoric instead of reasoned logic in their disagreements.  We have all been invited to share in the 'debates' of recent years, where the conservatives are going to starve the children, ban blacks to the back of the bus, and kick old people out into the cold streets.  None of these charges have any basis in fact, but they make for good 30 second sound bites, and so the liberals use them with a regularity that makes ex-lax look tame in comparison.

The quote "Anyone who is not a liberal before 30 has no heart, and anyone who is not a conservative after 40 has no brain" has been attributed to many people, most recently by Winston Churchill.  But it is true that youth is an idealistic times for many, who feel, instead of know.  So the young do tend to be more liberal than the elder citizens.  So anyone who "has no heart", must learn early that they are not in the majority in their opinions, and thus seek to persuade others to their point of view through calm and reasoned logic.  The exact ingredients that a good debater needs.

But liberals are not exposed to that kind of cross pollination all the time.  Just look at du.org?  You can post anything you want there, as long as you do not dis another liberal.  Period.  Kind of narrow minded to me, and myopic.  They are welcome to wallow in their isolation and ignorance, for it is a free country.  But they are only depriving themselves of both debating and social skills needed to function in a society that is not homogeneous.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 08, 2005
I don't know about "violently" swinging both ways, but the ad hominem attacks are there. However, in looking BEYOND Republican Leaders and to the people who represent the Republican Party, I have seen FAR fewer personal attacks from the right than from the left. Being neither, I have to say that the right looks FAR nicer...MOST of the time!
on Dec 08, 2005

Someone's ideology has less to do with skill in debating than whether the audience agrees with them or not.

Thank you for dragging us back on topic.  However,  I am not saying that your ideology causes the quality of your debating skills, but I am agreeing with Rosenblum, that conservatives hone their earlier and better due to their minority status on the Campuses.  That is not to say that there are NO great Liberal debaters, or NO poor conservative debaters.  Just that as a rule, Conservatives learned early on that shouting and name calling does not win points.  A clean and clear presentation or refutation of the facts do.

on Dec 08, 2005

Kripes, Gid., surely that isn't a door that violently swings both ways! I would agree that, in all, there are less ad hominem attacks by Republican leaders but not by far...

While we can name many conservative talk show hosts who regularly lampoon the left, we do not find many conservative political leaders doing that.  Indeed, until recently, Bush was not even responding to the ad hominem attacks from the left, and that made a lot of conservatives mad at him.

on Dec 08, 2005

Not exactly: I remember my time on the high school speech and debate team, and I had to invent contrary positions to each and every potential topic at the meet. It was a challenge, especially when I had a definite opinion one way or the other.
Skill in debate means having a rational, cogent argument, whichever side it is on.

I think part of the problem is that many people take what happens in politics to be what debate is really all about.  It is not.  You can win a debate even when the entire audience is against you, but the statement of

Someone's ideology has less to do with skill in debating than whether the audience agrees with them or not.

Clearly shows that many people think debating is a popularity contest, and not a time honored form of social discourse and discussion.

on Dec 08, 2005

However, in looking BEYOND Republican Leaders and to the people who represent the Republican Party,

I would even say looking at the leadership.  Perhaps it is because they are in power and dont need to, but even during the Carter Years, when Democrats had everything, I did note note a lot of ad hominem attacks on democrats by republicans.

on Dec 08, 2005
I think the real difference in the public figures at least between the two parties is that the Republicans are better at keeping their crackpots OUT of the official organization. Robertson, Rush, Coulter etc are crazy as hell, but they're not given seats at the table. And when someone in office does something really stupid, they're moved out of the party for the most part (think Newt). The Dems on the other hand give the crazys a seat at the head table, put them into positions of power because they don't see them as crackpots, they see them as passionate individuals who MUST have some sort of vision. Even though they usually don't.

I think the reason liberals are generally so bad at real debate is because they are basing everything on what they "feel" and seek out facts that only reinforce those feelings. If they can't find actual facts they just toss out "Well, it's just well-known... you'd have to be BLIND not to see it!" or "Just because I don't have evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen!" Since it's so much based on emotion, they by default lose any rational argument they try and enter.

Those who are liberal who wind up being truely successful are those who learn how to argue from the brain instead of the heart.
on Dec 08, 2005

If they can't find actual facts they just toss out "Well, it's just well-known... you'd have to be BLIND not to see it!" or "Just because I don't have evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen!"

I think that is the more telling statement, and what Rosenblum was saying.  They have not had to enter into a real debate, because they are surrounded by sycophants who say the same thing.  So when they issue a statement, their friends/companions merely nod in agreement.  Conservatives however mix with all types of people at an early age (college in this case), and so they are told up front they are wrong and have to then go back and prove they are correct.

on Dec 08, 2005
Why is it that in the 1990's, when Republicans wanted to wrest control of Congress from the Dems, they drew up a "contract" and said this is what's wrong and this is how we'll fix it.

They dropped the ball on some of it, but at least it was a vision, and gave people a reason to support change.

Now, on the DCCC website, their opening statement is that the Republicans had this grand vision and didn't do what they said they would, so it's time for a change. All of the articles on the front page talk about blasting Republican politicians, with no mention of a Democratic vision.

It's as if the Democratic party has become the self-relegated minority party, whose only job is to keep the majority in check.Link
on Dec 08, 2005

Building a good argument has nothing to do with whether the audience agrees with them.  Logic and reasoning don't "Care" whether onlookers agree or not.

Strong arguments usually involve:

1) Assumptions A, B, and C

2) If A, B, and C are true THEN D, E, and F are true.

3) Evidence making a persuasive case that D, E, and F necessarily follows A, B, and C.

4) Providing Conclusion X which is based on D, E, and F being true.

That is quite different from the typical liberal argument:

"You're a fucking racist nazi!!1!!"

 

on Dec 08, 2005
It's as if the Democratic party has become the self-relegated minority party, whose only job is to keep the majority in check.


In Europe, it's called the 'opposition party'. They oppose everything the majority party has to offer. That's their role.
Seems the Dems would like to emulate the Europeans more than they'd care to admit.
on Dec 08, 2005

Now, on the DCCC website, their opening statement is that the Republicans had this grand vision and didn't do what they said they would, so it's time for a change. All of the articles on the front page talk about blasting Republican politicians, with no mention of a Democratic vision.

I would go so far as to agree that the republicans have dropped the ball, and I am not happy.  However, you note the other shoe falling.  No Vision on their part.  They have not had a vision in 5 years.  ALl they are is "ABB".  And that wont work in 3 years, and may not next year.

on Dec 08, 2005

That is quite different from the typical liberal argument:
"You're a fucking racist nazi!!1!!"

Fortunately, not all of them.  But that is all too prevalent.

on Dec 08, 2005

In Europe, it's called the 'opposition party'. They oppose everything the majority party has to offer. That's their role.
Seems the Dems would like to emulate the Europeans more than they'd care to admit.

The slam against republicans is that during their nadir, they were the get along guys.  Winning some Presidencies, but generally relegated to the minority party.  Love him or hate him, Gingrich taught the republicans how to be a majority party.

on Dec 08, 2005
"You're a... racist nazi!"


My gosh! You're right. He IS a racist Nazi! You have swayed me. How could I align myself with a Nazi?

Sadly, that tactic really works. All too well.
on Dec 08, 2005

Sadly, that tactic really works. All too well.

For only the weak minds and already converted.

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