Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Thumbing through the latest articles on Sam Alito, I came across one by Jonathan Rosenblum (amazing what google will return with a search on key words).  This article was a little bit about Alito, but mostly it was about one man's observations of going from Liberal to Conservative in his life's journey.

Rosenblum was not always conservative as he details, in fact probably back in the 60s, he was (in his words) one of the last to don a suit.  But over time, he has gone from Ideologue to realist, and the sad part, lost many of his friends in the process.  They just could not stomach his conversion.

But the fascinating part of his trip down memory lane, was in how he describes the fact that conservatives are a minority on most Ivy League Campuses.  And being a minority, they look around and realize that there are smart people who do not believe as they do, so they have to adjust to the fact that they are not going to win debates by yelling louder, but by debating better.  And they learn to craft their arguments so that they can at least engage others in their beliefs.

Being forced to recognize that there are different points of view helps make bright young conservatives such good debaters. They learn early on the limited persuasiveness of shouting at someone with whom they disagree, "You're an idiot." Of necessity they have to develop the ability to cast their arguments in ways that appeal to those starting from very different premises.

While I have not made a life long study of debating skills of liberals versus conservatives, it does not take one long, to even a casual observer, that this tendency in college, carries over into later life.  We have seen many instances of a liberal, challenged in their beliefs, resort to name calling (and some conservatives, I will grant) and what in essence amounts to yelling here on both JU and the Internet in general.

Many of us love to pop over to democratunderground.org on occasion to check out the latest rantings there.  For that is what it truly is.  Simple rantings.  And who has not heard of the Daily KOS where anyone left of Mao Tse Tung is branded a right wing firebrand (with of course no rationalization other than a betrayal of their liberal beliefs).

This is not to say that liberals cannot be good debaters.  Just that, as a general rule (and we know about the exceptions), Liberals tend to use inflammatory rhetoric instead of reasoned logic in their disagreements.  We have all been invited to share in the 'debates' of recent years, where the conservatives are going to starve the children, ban blacks to the back of the bus, and kick old people out into the cold streets.  None of these charges have any basis in fact, but they make for good 30 second sound bites, and so the liberals use them with a regularity that makes ex-lax look tame in comparison.

The quote "Anyone who is not a liberal before 30 has no heart, and anyone who is not a conservative after 40 has no brain" has been attributed to many people, most recently by Winston Churchill.  But it is true that youth is an idealistic times for many, who feel, instead of know.  So the young do tend to be more liberal than the elder citizens.  So anyone who "has no heart", must learn early that they are not in the majority in their opinions, and thus seek to persuade others to their point of view through calm and reasoned logic.  The exact ingredients that a good debater needs.

But liberals are not exposed to that kind of cross pollination all the time.  Just look at du.org?  You can post anything you want there, as long as you do not dis another liberal.  Period.  Kind of narrow minded to me, and myopic.  They are welcome to wallow in their isolation and ignorance, for it is a free country.  But they are only depriving themselves of both debating and social skills needed to function in a society that is not homogeneous.


Comments (Page 6)
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on Dec 10, 2005
He had already told the host/moderator to shut up


nawwww. that was directed at buckley who'd begun trying to talk over vidal's reply to howard k. smith's question about the nazi flag.

i recently found the vidal article which esquire was forced to 'unpublish' after republishing it a couple years ago--not to mention paying buckley a libel awared for the privilege. (to make it all the more fun, vidal and buckley had already pursued mutual libel cases when their articles about each other in chicago originally appeared 30+ years ago in esquire and--i think--the new yorker.)
on Dec 11, 2005

only if the topic is not really about an assertion members of one side are more restrained, unemotional, reasonable and civil than the other. seeing and hearing two of 20th century america's most eloquent exponents of the opposing sides in question go total batshit on live network tv could hardly be more relevant.

Thank you for a lesson in writing. Now reread the article.  And then get back to me.

on Dec 11, 2005

At least I think Buckley could back up his batshit. Vidal would just harass you with hyperbole, or molest you with metaphor...

He is a liberal.

on Dec 11, 2005

How I saw that excerpt was that Gore Vidal was doing the baiting.

No, Vidal lost the argument, and started the name calling.  Buckley then decided since it was not a debate, but a name calling contest, to join in.

on Dec 11, 2005

meh, Vidal was just being himself. He had already told the host/moderator to shut up.

Exactly!

on Dec 11, 2005

No, you could tell the difference... no one uses that level of diction or vocabulary these days in the mainstream media. Shame really.

Buckeley still does.  But you are right, he is not considered mainstream cause he does not hate America.

on Dec 11, 2005

nawwww. that was directed at buckley who'd begun trying to talk over vidal's reply to howard k. smith's question about the nazi flag.

Nawww!  That was directed at anyone who disagreed, like the moderator.  Just as Brad said.

on Dec 11, 2005
Buckeley still does. But you are right, he is not considered mainstream cause he does not hate America.


Ask David Frum about that... he has accused many of the paleoconservatives like Buckley and Buchanan of being un-American because they have been critical of Bush and the war.
on Dec 11, 2005
Nawww! That was directed at anyone who disagreed, like the moderator. Just as Brad said


nawwwww! according to buckley, the dialogue went like this:

vidal: shut up a minute.
buckley: no i wont.

you'll find it right at the bottom of page 31 here:
Link

one more reason to distrust the sorta generalizations you've so enthusiastically endorsed in this article.
on Dec 11, 2005

paleoconservatives

What?  I love the term, even if I cannot place it!  As in who?

on Dec 11, 2005

one more reason to distrust the sorta generalizations you've so enthusiastically endorsed in this article.

Actually, you are the only one talking about generalizations and endorsing.  Since you want to go that route, you might want to provide actual examples.

But I guess not, you never do.

on Dec 11, 2005
Yes, after reading through this thread I have to admit conservatives are better debaters. In fact, I'd go so far as to call them masters at debating. Yup, Masterdebaters, that's for sure.
on Dec 11, 2005
you might want to provide actual examples


your title is a generalization. your post endorses the assertion.

i might not want to provide many more actual examples. you seem unable to admit you're wrong no matter how clearly or uniquivocably the evidence to the contrary. comment 84 is one more instance.
on Dec 12, 2005
What? I love the term, even if I cannot place it! As in who?


I believe that my understanding of the term was slightly skewed. I believed that in encompassed both the Old Right and the New Right, but the more I looked into it, the more it looks like they are mostly proponents of the former and less of the latter.

My bad. DOH!
on Dec 12, 2005

Yes, after reading through this thread I have to admit conservatives are better debaters. In fact, I'd go so far as to call them masters at debating. Yup, Masterdebaters, that's for sure.

I guess that is better than being the best Baiter on a fishing boat.

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