Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on December 6, 2005 By Dr Guy In Religion

I recently came across a remark that accused Catholics of Worshiping the Statue of Mary.  And before my brain engaged to stop my fingers from flying, I blasted that remark.  And yes, I acted in haste and repent in leisure.  So first, I would like to apologize to the target of my wrath.  I should not have posted that reply.

But it also gave me my third article in my series.  Praying to statues.  Or as some think, praying to someone other than God and Jesus.  Catholics do neither.

The statues we see in most Catholic churches are a part of a tradition started in the middle ages when Artisans, for want of a meal ticket, often worked for the Church.  So Michaelangelo painted the Sistine chapel, created the statue of David, along with many other works.  Because the Church paid.  And that tradition has been handed down through the centuries as other churches wanted some of the beautiful works in their buildings (or on their buildings) as well.  Today, many churches have no statues at all.  And those that do, the statues are there for decorations, pertaining to the religion.  They are not worshiped.  They are adored, both for their art sake, and for who they represent.  But no knowledgeable Catholic worships them! (As I have stated before, many Catholics dont even know about their own religion - so some may actually worship them).

But do we pray to them - what they represent?  Do we pray to Mary, the Mother of Jesus?  Do we pray to the Saints? I guess that is the bigger misconception.

Catholics do not pray to the saints or Mary or any other revered figure in the Church.  What we do practice is to ask that Mary or a saint or saints pray for us.  For the thought is that many voices are louder than one (remember "It's a Wonderful Life"? The opening scene where everyone is praying for George Bailey?).  And in that, we do ask for their intercession for our prayers.

And indeed that is not unique to Catholicism. For almost every Christian denomination has a request for prayers for other people.  So everyone does it.  But one of the key differences is that Catholics not only ask the living to pray for us, but also those who have died.  And that may (or may not) be unique.

Someone, and I forget who, said they would rather ask the living to pray for them, not the dead.  And that is fine.  But let me pose a question.  If you are a true Christian, then you must believe that when you die, your soul does not die, and if you have lead a good and holy life, your soul ascends to heaven.  So you are in God's home then, right?  And you are truly not dead, but have life everlasting, right?

So why would you not ask those you know to be in heaven to pray for you?  Makes sense that God is more likely to listen to one who is with him than for one who may or may not be a good person (you never know about the living).

But how do we KNOW that a person is in heaven?  I am sure we have all buried a relative or friend and hope they are in heaven.  Maybe we even know it with all our heart.  For Catholics it is easy to know who is in Heaven.  Not all of those in heaven, or course!  But we do have an impressive list of names to call upon for we know they are in Heaven.  For every Saint, and yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus is one (although we dont call  her Saint Mary usually), are in Heaven!  Now many people who have never been beatified, are undoubtedly in Heaven as well.  I know my Grandmother is.  But she will never be made a saint (just not famous enough as it is a very long process).

So I could just as easily ask my Grandmother to pray for me, as I can Saint Jude, or Joseph.  And some do that very thing (as I am sure many other Christians ask their beloved relatives to pray for them). But more often, we ask the known saints to pray for us, adding to our prayers in the hopes that they will add their voice to ours and create a Cacophony like that one heard in the opening scene of It's a Wonderful Life.

That is really all there is to it.  No great mystery, no violation of the first amendment.  Just asking others, living and ascended, to add their voices to ours so that our prayers carry greater weight.

Really simple when you understand it.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 07, 2005
Ok here is the reference from 1 Samuel...and a link that goes into OT law about this particular incident if your interested.

Now talking to the "spirit" of a dead person is against God's law. Whether they answer you back or not.

According to the Law of Moses, anyone who professed to be a medium or a channel of communication to the spirit world was to be put to death by stoning, and this was the judgment prescribed by Samuel. A medium was considered a necromancer, or communicator of the dead. The practice of being a necromancer was the craft or practice for extracting information of guidance from a Pagan god.

Link
on Dec 07, 2005
It doesn't help your cause when apologists for your faith often are the ones who perpetuate these myths.

I was in a store once speaking with a gentleman from Nigeria who was Catholic. He was new to the country and a lady from his church was with him to help him to get acquainted with the customs. Because I have always attempted to be publicly ecumenical, I was speaking with him and explaining that I went to a Protestant church. He had never heard of a Christian faith other than Catholic, and I was attempting to explain while very definitely trying NOT to convert. The lady who was with him tersely snapped "they have Jesus, but they don't have Mary".

You'd make a good publicist for the Catholic Church, Dr. You could teach some of these parishioners a little diplomacy...lol
on Dec 07, 2005
they have Jesus, but they don't have Mary


Which really is false. I think Mary rocked, hard. I revere her because she is the mother of Jesus. But I think she was a woman, like me, and not perfect. If she was perfect than she coulda just been the lamb and Jesus didn't need to come at all....LOL
on Dec 07, 2005
Amen....
on Dec 08, 2005

Ah, so you don't believe a serial killer who truly repents on his death bed and asks Jesus into his heart is in heaven?

I did not say that.  Now would I be so arrogant as to judgge someone that way.  That is between him and his god.  However, if he truly did repent, and was sorry for his sins, who are we to say that he will again reverse course after his soul ascends?

on Dec 08, 2005

According to the Law of Moses, anyone who professed to be a medium or a channel of communication to the spirit world was to be put to death by stoning, and this was the judgment prescribed by Samuel. A medium was considered a necromancer, or communicator of the dead. The practice of being a necromancer was the craft or practice for extracting information of guidance from a Pagan god.

2 problems with that.  One, it is Old Testament, and Jesus is the new Covenant.  You will find a lot of contradictions between the old testament and his teachings. Two, we dont stone crazies anymore (thankfully) and while I have asked for intercession in the past, I have not been holding a 2 way dialogue.  Big difference.  We are not channeling.

on Dec 08, 2005

The lady who was with him tersely snapped "they have Jesus, but they don't have Mary".

Sorry, I had to laugh at that one!

You'd make a good publicist for the Catholic Church, Dr. You could teach some of these parishioners a little diplomacy...lol

I know there is a lot of ignorance about the Catholic Church, especially within the church!  Like you, my job is not to convert anyone, but to educate those willing to listen to what the Church is truly saying.  Many, like Tova and KFC, will never beleive what I do, and that is fine.  I have always maintained that there are many denominations of Christianity because there are many types of people.  Mine is right for me.  It is not right for everyone.

on Dec 08, 2005

Which really is false. I think Mary rocked, hard. I revere her because she is the mother of Jesus. But I think she was a woman, like me, and not perfect. If she was perfect than she coulda just been the lamb and Jesus didn't need to come at all....

And you are right on all accounts.  The Church teaches us 2 things about Mary.  One is that she was born without original sin (so that Jesus would not be tainted), and 2 was that she was assumed directly into heaven (versus a soul assension).  Other than that, Catholics believe as you do.  The Church never said she was perfect.

on Dec 08, 2005
We do have an impressive list of names to call upon for we know they are in Heaven. For every Saint, and yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus is one (although we dont call her Saint Mary usually), are in Heaven! . . . So why would you not ask those you know to be in heaven to pray for you? . . . That is really all there is to it. No great mystery, no violation of the first amendment. Just asking others, living and ascended, to add their voices to ours so that our prayers carry greater weight.


That’s good logic, Dr, and I agree with you. I think it’s a person's good intentions to pray in the first place which attracts Heavenly assistance and guidance, whether it be from the Angels, the Saints, or from the Master Himself.

AND they are just dead PEOPLE not dead gods.

No, they are not dead people, they are living souls. And as they are with God, who are we to say what they can and cannot do? Perhaps, since they were so good in life to earn the heavenly reward, they may want to continue doing good? Perhaps that is their calling in life and afterlife? We do believe that they may or may not aid us in prayers. There is no guarantees. But it cannot hurt to ask, now can it?


If it’s guarantee you’re after, then you may as well skip the Saint level and go straight to the top. Pray directly to the Good Lord JC. He's the One with all the authority, grace and infallible knowledge.

Incidentally, Jesus’ infallible knowledge might explain why He sometimes doesn’t seem to answer our prayers. Christ is aware of the highest good for each soul, and knows that sometimes it’s in our highest interests not to interfere in ways that might detriment our potential spiritual growth. Unbeknown to our unenlightened personality, our soul might need to experience a bit of lack, grief, or pain, or whatever, in order for it to advance spiritually. Pain is necessary for growth to occur. (See how God reacts to St. Paul’s prayer in 2 Corinthians 12.8-10. I think there's a sound principle in those verses).
on Dec 08, 2005
Jesus’ infallible knowledge might explain why . . .

That was meant to read, "The fact that Jesus possesses infallible knowledge might explain why . . . "


(the first one sounds terribly arrogant. I think I'm too sensitive)
on Dec 08, 2005

If it’s guarantee you’re after, then you may as well skip the Saint level and go straight to the top. Pray directly to the Good Lord JC. He's the One with all the authority, grace and infallible knowledge.

Very true!  There is no reason that one cannot. It is kind of a "the more the merrrier" that Catholics do.  We dont need to, but we like including them at times.

Incidentally, Jesus’ infallible knowledge might explain why He sometimes doesn’t seem to answer our prayers.

Or as someone else said, maybe the answer is no?

on Dec 08, 2005

That was meant to read, "The fact that Jesus possesses infallible knowledge might explain why . . . "


(the first one sounds terribly arrogant. I think I'm too sensitive)

Actually, I think both are pretty much the same.  As you were talking about Jesus, I dont see it as anything but semantics.

on Dec 08, 2005
One, it is Old Testament, and Jesus is the new Covenant. You will find a lot of contradictions between the old testament and his teachings


Hmmmm could you further elaborate? I would venture to say that there are no contradictions found in scripture. God, is the God of order, not disorder and does not contradict himself. I actually was told this by a Guy at my work and he's gonna get back to me on this. I'm still waiting.......so maybe you can take his place and give me one or two.........?

on Dec 09, 2005

Hmmmm could you further elaborate?

Hmm, how about "An eye for an eye" versus "Turn the other cheek".

on Dec 09, 2005
I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO SAY THAT..........

Ok here goes....he who has ears.....let him hear.....

See what happens is when someone says it's a contradiction, others follow believing without delving into the source and checking it out. We must always find out for ourselves and not take another's word. Who was it that said...if you say it first people will believe it even if it's a lie. ......was it Hitler? Advertising uses this principle all the time.....why? cuz it works.

In the OT what you are referring to is "Breach for breach, eye for eye tooth for tooth as he has caused a blemish in a man so shall it be done to him again." Lev 24:20.

The law of retaliation lex talionis provided for exact justice, NOT REVENGE and concerned public or civil justice, not personal vengeance. This law established the principle that the punishment should fit the crime but not go beyond it.

Now Christ said in Matt 5:38: "You have it heard that it has been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you that you resist not evil but whosoever shall smite you on your right cheek turn to him the other also........"

The law of retailiation, lex talionis, did provide for the ending of feuds, but Christ showed another way to do the same. Jesus did not alterate the true meaning of the law. He was merely explaining and affirming the law's true meaning and showing from a personal standpoint there is a better way. And it works....I've tried this principle. A harsh tone or answer turns people off but even if you are in the right and being taken to task by another and you speak in a kind gentle tone ....has a calming effect on the other person. And that's what Jesus is saying....yes you have every right to retaliate but go further and be bigger than they and let it go.

If you back up a bit to 5:17 you see him say in the same context...."Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy but to fulfill."

So in one aspect you're right...he is the New Covenant that speaks better things but he doesn't contradict himself or his word.

Does this answer the contradiction? Any more?



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