Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on December 6, 2005 By Dr Guy In Religion

I recently came across a remark that accused Catholics of Worshiping the Statue of Mary.  And before my brain engaged to stop my fingers from flying, I blasted that remark.  And yes, I acted in haste and repent in leisure.  So first, I would like to apologize to the target of my wrath.  I should not have posted that reply.

But it also gave me my third article in my series.  Praying to statues.  Or as some think, praying to someone other than God and Jesus.  Catholics do neither.

The statues we see in most Catholic churches are a part of a tradition started in the middle ages when Artisans, for want of a meal ticket, often worked for the Church.  So Michaelangelo painted the Sistine chapel, created the statue of David, along with many other works.  Because the Church paid.  And that tradition has been handed down through the centuries as other churches wanted some of the beautiful works in their buildings (or on their buildings) as well.  Today, many churches have no statues at all.  And those that do, the statues are there for decorations, pertaining to the religion.  They are not worshiped.  They are adored, both for their art sake, and for who they represent.  But no knowledgeable Catholic worships them! (As I have stated before, many Catholics dont even know about their own religion - so some may actually worship them).

But do we pray to them - what they represent?  Do we pray to Mary, the Mother of Jesus?  Do we pray to the Saints? I guess that is the bigger misconception.

Catholics do not pray to the saints or Mary or any other revered figure in the Church.  What we do practice is to ask that Mary or a saint or saints pray for us.  For the thought is that many voices are louder than one (remember "It's a Wonderful Life"? The opening scene where everyone is praying for George Bailey?).  And in that, we do ask for their intercession for our prayers.

And indeed that is not unique to Catholicism. For almost every Christian denomination has a request for prayers for other people.  So everyone does it.  But one of the key differences is that Catholics not only ask the living to pray for us, but also those who have died.  And that may (or may not) be unique.

Someone, and I forget who, said they would rather ask the living to pray for them, not the dead.  And that is fine.  But let me pose a question.  If you are a true Christian, then you must believe that when you die, your soul does not die, and if you have lead a good and holy life, your soul ascends to heaven.  So you are in God's home then, right?  And you are truly not dead, but have life everlasting, right?

So why would you not ask those you know to be in heaven to pray for you?  Makes sense that God is more likely to listen to one who is with him than for one who may or may not be a good person (you never know about the living).

But how do we KNOW that a person is in heaven?  I am sure we have all buried a relative or friend and hope they are in heaven.  Maybe we even know it with all our heart.  For Catholics it is easy to know who is in Heaven.  Not all of those in heaven, or course!  But we do have an impressive list of names to call upon for we know they are in Heaven.  For every Saint, and yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus is one (although we dont call  her Saint Mary usually), are in Heaven!  Now many people who have never been beatified, are undoubtedly in Heaven as well.  I know my Grandmother is.  But she will never be made a saint (just not famous enough as it is a very long process).

So I could just as easily ask my Grandmother to pray for me, as I can Saint Jude, or Joseph.  And some do that very thing (as I am sure many other Christians ask their beloved relatives to pray for them). But more often, we ask the known saints to pray for us, adding to our prayers in the hopes that they will add their voice to ours and create a Cacophony like that one heard in the opening scene of It's a Wonderful Life.

That is really all there is to it.  No great mystery, no violation of the first amendment.  Just asking others, living and ascended, to add their voices to ours so that our prayers carry greater weight.

Really simple when you understand it.


Comments (Page 5)
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on Dec 11, 2005
I wasn't going to say anything, I was just watchin, but this is confusing to me. A couple of points I would add would be:

-Catholics kneel and cross themselves in the presence of these statues.

Sure, protestants have crosses, but isn't there a difference between a symbol and something you actually bow to? Granted, I don't think the average Catholic believes that they are worshiping a statue, but did the Hebrews really worship the golden calf, or the the god it represented? Semantics? Maybe.

It seems to me any bowing to particular images would be suspect enough to reject offhand. Add to that the spefic use of candles, vestments, particular order in rituals that are sacraments. These aren't just symbols, they are required, aren't they?

-Saints intercede. The difference to me between praying to a saint and asking a friend to pray for you is that there is the expectation that the saint's intercession carries more weight, doesn't it? Don't you find the use of saints as patrons of particular situations to be uncannily like a pantheon of minor gods?

The act of saying "Hail Mary" seems to betray that there is more. Do catholics believe they are equal in spiritual status to the saints? If so, sure, the example of how they lived would be great, but after they die would it be any more effective to ask that they interceded any more than any other person?

I am NOT, under any circumstances making light or discouraging you from your faith. If Catholics openly stated they worshipped saints you wouldn't catch me condemning them for it, nor will I if they deny it and it seems otherwise.

I myself wear a St Christopher medal. Why? It would take a while to explain, but I don't have a problem with symbols, examples, even ones that I can't vouch for in terms of their existance or historical validity. My points here are just some things that make me think that there are some conflicted ideals at work in Catholicism. But then what else is new, I can make as many points about any religion.
on Dec 11, 2005
No Andy, one is definitely Mary's and the other Joseph's. Matthew's is Joseph and Luke is Mary's. It does mention Mary in Matt 1:16 as the wife of Joseph. This was his line. Notice in v7 that he came from the line of Solomon. This is David's Son. This is where the LEGAL title comes from.

Now go to Luke 3:31 and you can see Mary came from Nathan, also David's son (Solomon's brother). So they came from brothers and are cousins way back to David. Joseph couldn't have come from the line of Solomon and of Nathan now could he? Can you see this?


Fair enough, KFC. I got a bit lost in all those names, trying to keep up with your argument. But I believe you and I won't argue. It looks like you've already explored the anti-Bible points of view before, which I think is a wise thing to do.

Saint is something that is applied to a person after they have died. God doesnt zip down here and say "yep...she's a saint", but there is a long and detailed (meaning... . . . That doesnt raise them up higher in Heaven, NOR does Heaven recognize the status we placed on that person.


Very true ziggy. Saint is a label that we humans have slapped on people. I was watching a TV program just the other day about Patron Saints. They were reading out some extracts from St Patrick's auto-biographical writings, and Paddy admitted that he was a worse sinner and bad person than most people that he knew. It was an eye opening program, and very interesting.
on Dec 11, 2005
So hows a dead person with no ears hearin me anyway?


how do them damn ghosteses know they're gettin to us?

seriously tho...

altho i'm late to this aspect (calling for the community of saints to intercede on behalf of the faithful), i notice no mention was made of the community of the faithful praying on behalf of those doin time in limbo, purgatory or parts of nw indiana.
on Dec 11, 2005
It looks like you've already explored the anti-Bible points of view before, which I think is a wise thing to do.


Yes Andy, you hit the nail on the head. We need to go to the source always first to find out the truth...no matter what we're talking about, whether scripture, work related things, gossip, etc. After peeling away all the layers the truth will be found at the bottom of the lies.

Keep up the good work.

if Heaven is so incredibly good, why would people want to take their eyes off of it and look down on us?"


So true, the other thing to think about is scripture says in Heaven there will be no more tears. If they had access to our world in heaven how could this not be helped? Our world is filled with awful sin and we are right to mourn over it. Including Mary. If she saw from heaven what's going on here she would weep for how we are treating her son. I bet that doesn't get thought of.



on Dec 11, 2005

Reply By: Ziggystyles

Ziggy, you antagonism towards Catholics is well documented.  Now, why dont you read the rest of the respoonses for the answers to your questions.  As if you have, and you are still asking them, you are hopelessly ignorant.  Or antagonistic. Or just stupid.

 

on Dec 11, 2005

It seems to me any bowing to particular images would be suspect enough to reject offhand. Add to that the spefic use of candles, vestments, particular order in rituals that are sacraments. These aren't just symbols, they are required, aren't they?

Bowing?  Sure.  Veneration? No.  Requried?  And where did you get that from?

The act of saying "Hail Mary" seems to betray that there is more. Do catholics believe they are equal in spiritual status to the saints? If so, sure, the example of how they lived would be great, but after they die would it be any more effective to ask that they interceded any more than any other person?

Again, read what I say, not what you want me to say.  Dont put words into my mouth, and do not infer what I dont say.  Now if you can find where I said that, or even infered that, be my guest.  I think I am clear here.  I am sorry that simple english does not  suffice.

on Dec 11, 2005

Saint is a label that we humans have slapped on people.

Thank you!  Some people need the obvious stated.  Even when it is stated, just not in plain english.

on Dec 11, 2005

altho i'm late to this aspect (calling for the community of saints to intercede on behalf of the faithful), i notice no mention was made of the community of the faithful praying on behalf of those doin time in limbo, purgatory or parts of nw indiana.

Well, Purgatory and LImbo are gone.  NW Indiana is still around, but I dont think they think they are in some kind of stasis.

And no, I dont think anyone talked about those not in heaven doing some heavy praying.

on Dec 11, 2005

if Heaven is so incredibly good, why would people want to take their eyes off of it and look down on us?"


So true, the other thing to think about is scripture says in Heaven there will be no more tears.

Well, I am sorry that I dont presume of those in heaven that they are so superior to us as they cannot be bothered with us.  I guess I just think that goodness transends this plane and they do care.  If I am wrong, no harm no foul.  If I am right?

Think about that.

on Dec 11, 2005
OH... sorry, thought this was a discussion, a reasonable place where you could ask questions and get some insight. Evidently it is a place where the blogger makes an assertion, then when someone asks a question it is taken to be an attack and brushed off.

I'll wait for another blog on this subject I guess. Not much point in looking in here if this is just a Dr. Guy paranoia fest.
on Dec 11, 2005

OH... sorry, thought this was a discussion, a reasonable place where you could ask questions and get some insight. Evidently it is a place where the blogger makes an assertion, then when someone asks a question it is taken to be an attack and brushed off.

I'll wait for another blog on this subject I guess. Not much point in looking in here if this is just a Dr. Guy paranoia fest.


On this I'll have to agree with you. Although I don't know if its a paranoia fest as much as it is an "I'm right, you're wrong, UP YOURS!" fest.
on Dec 11, 2005
Ziggy, you antagonism towards Catholics is well documented. Now, why dont you read the rest of the respoonses for the answers to your questions. As if you have, and you are still asking them, you are hopelessly ignorant. Or antagonistic. Or just stupid.


nope...just had my eyes opened after I left the Catholic church. You think Im attacking the Catholic church...I just make points from my perspective.

You talk about how Catholics ask Mary for intercession in your prayers when you cant answer the simple question of why dont you just go directly to God?

You say people dont pray to Mary...yet many churches (all the ones I have been in) have statues of at least Mary in a few different spots as well as John....along with kneeling pads where one can pray, or 'ask for intercession of prayer'

There is no mediator between God and man...yet there is confession booths where you can talk to priest.

Im not attacking it...I just bring out things that dont make sense to me because they are taken and conjured up without a strong Biblical foundation for the reasoning of their existance. Of course, you consider the Bible to be a historical document...so that takes care of your side of the argument....but if you dont hold the Bible to be the true existing word of God...then what is your faith based on? My faith is based on the Bible...not what a board of directors or priests or church higher ups decide is best.
on Dec 11, 2005
Well, I am sorry that I dont presume of those in heaven that they are so superior to us as they cannot be bothered with us. I guess I just think that goodness transends this plane and they do care. If I am wrong, no harm no foul. If I am right?Think about that.


You could be right....but, then again, so could I....think about that.

Heaven is supposed to be something that we can not even begin to describe. Why would anyone want to take their eyes off of it and look down on this sin filled earth? Also...this could go into another thread all together, because....do those that are in heaven keep their memories of time here on earth? If so....that would incredibly taint Heaven allowing those things up there. Heaven is perfect...why would our sin filled memories be allowed?

on Dec 11, 2005

OH... sorry, thought this was a discussion, a reasonable place where you could ask questions and get some insight. Evidently it is a place where the blogger makes an assertion, then when someone asks a question it is taken to be an attack and brushed off.

Perhaps you should associate responses with questions?  It is a discussion.  What made you think it was not?

on Dec 11, 2005
Sorry...of the three continuing posts by Marcie...the more recent two were my comments...Marcie didnt sign out on my puter.
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