Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on December 6, 2005 By Dr Guy In Religion

I recently came across a remark that accused Catholics of Worshiping the Statue of Mary.  And before my brain engaged to stop my fingers from flying, I blasted that remark.  And yes, I acted in haste and repent in leisure.  So first, I would like to apologize to the target of my wrath.  I should not have posted that reply.

But it also gave me my third article in my series.  Praying to statues.  Or as some think, praying to someone other than God and Jesus.  Catholics do neither.

The statues we see in most Catholic churches are a part of a tradition started in the middle ages when Artisans, for want of a meal ticket, often worked for the Church.  So Michaelangelo painted the Sistine chapel, created the statue of David, along with many other works.  Because the Church paid.  And that tradition has been handed down through the centuries as other churches wanted some of the beautiful works in their buildings (or on their buildings) as well.  Today, many churches have no statues at all.  And those that do, the statues are there for decorations, pertaining to the religion.  They are not worshiped.  They are adored, both for their art sake, and for who they represent.  But no knowledgeable Catholic worships them! (As I have stated before, many Catholics dont even know about their own religion - so some may actually worship them).

But do we pray to them - what they represent?  Do we pray to Mary, the Mother of Jesus?  Do we pray to the Saints? I guess that is the bigger misconception.

Catholics do not pray to the saints or Mary or any other revered figure in the Church.  What we do practice is to ask that Mary or a saint or saints pray for us.  For the thought is that many voices are louder than one (remember "It's a Wonderful Life"? The opening scene where everyone is praying for George Bailey?).  And in that, we do ask for their intercession for our prayers.

And indeed that is not unique to Catholicism. For almost every Christian denomination has a request for prayers for other people.  So everyone does it.  But one of the key differences is that Catholics not only ask the living to pray for us, but also those who have died.  And that may (or may not) be unique.

Someone, and I forget who, said they would rather ask the living to pray for them, not the dead.  And that is fine.  But let me pose a question.  If you are a true Christian, then you must believe that when you die, your soul does not die, and if you have lead a good and holy life, your soul ascends to heaven.  So you are in God's home then, right?  And you are truly not dead, but have life everlasting, right?

So why would you not ask those you know to be in heaven to pray for you?  Makes sense that God is more likely to listen to one who is with him than for one who may or may not be a good person (you never know about the living).

But how do we KNOW that a person is in heaven?  I am sure we have all buried a relative or friend and hope they are in heaven.  Maybe we even know it with all our heart.  For Catholics it is easy to know who is in Heaven.  Not all of those in heaven, or course!  But we do have an impressive list of names to call upon for we know they are in Heaven.  For every Saint, and yes, Mary the Mother of Jesus is one (although we dont call  her Saint Mary usually), are in Heaven!  Now many people who have never been beatified, are undoubtedly in Heaven as well.  I know my Grandmother is.  But she will never be made a saint (just not famous enough as it is a very long process).

So I could just as easily ask my Grandmother to pray for me, as I can Saint Jude, or Joseph.  And some do that very thing (as I am sure many other Christians ask their beloved relatives to pray for them). But more often, we ask the known saints to pray for us, adding to our prayers in the hopes that they will add their voice to ours and create a Cacophony like that one heard in the opening scene of It's a Wonderful Life.

That is really all there is to it.  No great mystery, no violation of the first amendment.  Just asking others, living and ascended, to add their voices to ours so that our prayers carry greater weight.

Really simple when you understand it.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 06, 2005

See...to me...that is praying TO her asking her to pray FOR us. I don't get it. I never will get it. I think that Catholocism and my neurons are like oil and water.

Great!  Thank you !

No. Pray for us!  Not we pray to you!  Pray for us!  See?  We are asking her to PRAY FOR US!

We are asking her to pray for us and yes in our prayers, we ask her to pray with us!  Have you not done that with others?  That we do it with people in heave is no diferent.  They are with God!  SO we know their prayers are nearer to his ear (versus our friends that we just hope are).

See?

on Dec 06, 2005
Okay...since my think alouds are not welcome, I'll let you continue writing. Thanks for your thoughts.

No, I dont like to delete comments unless they are from anon trolls. I will if you really want me to however. But that is your call.


Its your blog.
on Dec 06, 2005

Its your blog.

And your thoughts.  That is what it is all about.

Your think alouds are always welcome.  Just make sure they are thinks.

on Dec 06, 2005
Ok I am pragmatic for the most part.

I don't pray and ask dead people to talk to God for me because they can't hear me. They can't see me either. I mean, would it be HEAVEN if you had to hear and see earth? I don't think so!

AND they are just dead PEOPLE not dead gods. They aren't omnipresent, they don't hear my inner prayers and thoughts, only God does. Jesus hears us because he is here and in heaven, they ain't.

So hows a dead person with no ears hearin me anyway?
on Dec 06, 2005
Then perhaps you presume too much. Should I presume to talk for you or your relatives? Perhaps you need to stop being so myopic and start just listening to the message, not the medium. I am sorry that you are so anti Catholic, especially since your stated religion is more Carholic now than the Catholics.

This is not a convert article. It is "splain it lucy' One. Perhaps since you are so antagonistic and defensive, it is you that needs to examine your beliefs. I am just "splaining' mine.


Antagonistic? Defensive? I think you're misinterpreting my tone. I *KNOW* my beliefs, I just don't understand Catholic ones. If that makes me unwelcome here, so be it. Just because I don't agree with your theology doesn't make me antagonistic or defensive. It means, simply, that I disagree. It doesn't mean that one form of this religion is better or worse than the other, it simply means they are different. You obviously missed this part:

I know that the Catholic faith touches more lives than any other sect out there, and that the Catholic faith does MUCH for people in need all around the world. I might not fully understand it, but I do respect it, for the most part.


What's the issue here? *I* said it, apparently, and my thoughts aren't as "lofty" as yours.
on Dec 06, 2005
WTG Tova....my sentiments exactly. I wanted to ask the Doc.....How did Jesus teach us to pray (Matt 6)? Also how did he show us an example himself praying (John 17)? I think it wise to follow HIS example and teaching directly.

Not quite sure how you can say you are not praying to Mary with the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" repition.......if you are talking to a dead person you are praying to them. There's really no getting around that one with a straight face. That's really what prayer is after all...talking to God.

You don't have to seek an intermediate outside of Christ....that's why the veil of the temple was torn (from top to bottom) at his death. Many priests became believers after they saw that. Direct access to God. Before that (in the OT) you had to go thru a priest to get to God. Much the same way you pray to Mary or go to a priest now. Only the priests were allowed on the other side of that veil. But now it's gone forever and our High Priest (Christ) always intercedes for us. What's not to like here?

yes. I dont see how that relates, but then I am not a Biblical scholar.


I was thinkin of this part:

And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
on Dec 07, 2005

AND they are just dead PEOPLE not dead gods.

No, they are not dead people, they are living souls.  And as they are with God, who are we to say what they can and cannot do?  Perhaps, since they were so good in life to earn the heavenly reward, they may want to continue doing good?  Perhaps that is their calling in life and afterlife?  We do believe that they may or may not aid us in prayers.  There is no guarantees.  But it cannot hurt to ask, now can it?

on Dec 07, 2005

WTG Tova....my sentiments exactly. I wanted to ask the Doc.....How did Jesus teach us to pray (Matt 6)? Also how did he show us an example himself praying (John 17)? I think it wise to follow HIS example and teaching directly.

I dont see how either relates.  They say pray not as the heathens do, and for the most part, Catholics dont.  We have some structured prayers, as do most all Christian Denominations, but those are used mostly in the rites and rituals, not in the daily prayers.  Just as they are in most other denominations.

Not quite sure how you can say you are not praying to Mary with the "Hail Mary Full of Grace" repition.......if you are talking to a dead person you are praying to them. There's really no getting around that one with a straight face. That's really what prayer is after all...talking to God.

You trap more flies with Honey than you do Vinegar.  Praising someone and then asking to pray for you is not praying to them.  And I dont agree that talking to a living soul is praying to them.  That appears to be your hangup.  That is the second time I have heard the term "dead person".  They are not dead people, they are living souls.

You don't have to seek an intermediate outside of Christ....that's why the veil of the temple was torn (from top to bottom) at his death. Many priests became believers after they saw that. Direct access to God. Before that (in the OT) you had to go thru a priest to get to God. Much the same way you pray to Mary or go to a priest now. Only the priests were allowed on the other side of that veil. But now it's gone forever and our High Priest (Christ) always intercedes for us. What's not to like here?

And we dont.  That was the whole point of this.  We dont need to, but it cannot hurt.  You dont need to ask others to pray for you in your hour of need, and yet almost every denomination has prayers of interdiction among their members for the needy ones.  Why?  Same reason.

And we dont have to go to a priest.  I guess you gave me my fourth topic.  Priests are just the rabbis of old.  Rabbi means teacher. We go to the priest to learn, and be helped, but it is not required.  I for one am not so egotistical to think I know everything, especially about my religion.  So I go to someone who studied it for years before being ordained with my questions, figuring they do know more than I.  That is not a set in stone fact, but it is a pretty good bet.

on Dec 07, 2005
There are also some sides to this we haven't hit on yet.

First, prayer is a blessing from God for US to help us in our transformation. When you ask your neighbor to pray for you...you are in fact BLESSING that person by asking them to come into God's presence. It's really not about what you ask for, its about getting living people in communication with God...you are blessing them...does that make sense? Scripture tells us we don't even really know WHAT to pray for and the HS moans and intercedes in our behalf. (That's true, I used to pray for a million buck, pfft, God knew it would destroy me and instantly set itself up as my idol. Thank GOD he didn't answer that prayer! How many times have you prayed for something and then later said, WHEW glad that DIDN'T happen.)

Second, when David prayed he used A-C-T-S. (Adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication.) Now correct me if I am wrong, but all those things need to be done in the 1st person. Prayer isn't a list of demands you give God, or ask others to present for you to God, its about adoration, confession, thanksgiving, and supplication. (Note supplication is LAST...God knows what we need before we ever even speak it.)

The reason ACTS need to be done in the first person is because God is transforming us into new creations. When we do those things and spend time with Him one on one, then he is transforming us, changing our hearts and minds. That can not be done with any third party involved at all.

In my mind, anything that comes between me and God is an idol. IT may be an idol for an hour, a day, a week, a year, a lifetime. It can be money, my husband, my kid, my COMPUTER, whatever. If I am doing that before spending my time in prayer one on one (A-C-T-S), then whatever is coming between my growth and God is my idol. So I think that is why people throw out "idol worship." We are told in the OT not to even try to commune with the dead. (Story about the witch in the cave when Saul seeks his dead prophets advice. Um, God does not like that....even had laws about it...and since God doesn't change, you can bet he doesn't like it still.)

All that and still I don't believe the dead can hear us. We do not become demi-gods when we die and become omnipresent. I don't know any Christian who believes that. We are assigning God's attributes to dead people we love or revere. Nowhere in scripture that I know of do people seek out the dead or even mention the dead watching "over them."

In the OT they say, "I am going to be with my fathers." when dying...not "Hey Abraham," ~grabbing heart~ "I'm comin to join ya!"



So all those prayers to Mary for intercession, aren't heard by any but God. And you know Jesus has to be shaking his head and saying, SHESH! I DIED so you could approach my throne boldly and yet you STILL try to put things between us.

This is very fun to talk about Dr Guy...I am not insulting the Catholic religion. I can't think about talking to a dead person without smiling!

And I am not so arrogant as to believe people in the very presence of God would give two hoots about me and my walk (they have better things to do). After all I have to do it, they've already won that race.
on Dec 07, 2005
They are not dead people, they are living souls.


Um, but they are BOTH! They are the living souls of a dead body (until Christ returns and they receive their glorified form). Living souls are not omnipresent, they are not here, they are in heaven. We can't email them or talk to them. They aren't God. He is in heaven sitting at the right hand of God, and here in the form of the HS, the HELPER and TEACHER. They are just "in heaven." Though that certainly is a good deal!
on Dec 07, 2005
Well said Tova.....agree on all points!!!

I'm just saying Doc, that Jesus taught us to pray and when he did he said to go to the Father and whatever we ask in the name of Jesus he would do. He will answer our prayers. He always does mine. Yes, no and wait is what I usually get. Some are so immediate it makes my head spin. It's an awesome feeling to be praying and get the answer instantly.

Think what this world would be like if we all took time every day to pray about the world situations.

If my people which are called by my name shall humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 1 Chron 7:14
on Dec 07, 2005

This is very fun to talk about Dr Guy...I am not insulting the Catholic religion. I can't think about talking to a dead person without smiling!

And I am not so arrogant as to believe people in the very presence of God would give two hoots about me and my walk (they have better things to do). After all I have to do it, they've already won that race.

There goes that dead person again!  Once you die, your body is nothing more than fertilizer for the earth.  You are not talking to a dead person, but an eternal soul.  And I will disagree with you on the last part.  After all, the way that those souls got to where they are is due to caring for their fellow man (and woman).  I would not be so arrogant as to believe that once the soul has ascended, they would undergo a metamorphoses that would stop them from being who they were that got them there.

on Dec 07, 2005

Um, but they are BOTH! They are the living souls of a dead body (until Christ returns and they receive their glorified form).

That is your belief, it is not mine.  Nor is it one of the Catholic Churches.  Jesus died so that we could reach our perfection in God.  That is the primary difference between Jews and Christians.  They are still waiting for their Messiah to open the gates of heaven.  We have already found ours.

on Dec 07, 2005

I'm just saying Doc, that Jesus taught us to pray and when he did he said to go to the Father and whatever we ask in the name of Jesus he would do. He will answer our prayers. He always does mine. Yes, no and wait is what I usually get. Some are so immediate it makes my head spin. It's an awesome feeling to be praying and get the answer instantly.

You see you are misconstruing this again.  No where in the teachings of the Catholic Church does it say you cannot pray directly to God.  And indeed we often do.  But nowhere does it say we can not ask others to pray for us.  It is an extra option.  If we take your position to its logical conclusion, then you are saying itis foolish to ask anyone to pray for us, living or ascended.  And that I do not believe.

on Dec 07, 2005
the way that those souls got to where they are is due to caring for their fellow man (and woman).


Ah, so you don't believe a serial killer who truly repents on his death bed and asks Jesus into his heart is in heaven? He has spent his whole life killing and injuring the human race....but if right before death he repents and becomes a believer..he hasn't "earned" his right to be there. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross beside him? He would see him in heaven that very day! That man was not one who "served" human.

No service is good enough. If we could achieve it, Jesus didn't even need to come...we'd just work really hard and the ones who worked the hardest would get heaven right?

The Bible doesn't tell a lot of things we "can't" do, doesn't mean its a good idea to do them. And God did say we are not supposed to commune with the dead...OT same story as cited above. HIS words not mine.
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