Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on November 2, 2005 By Dr Guy In Religion

I am putting this under religion because lately there has been a lot of misconceptions about Catholicism.

Now I will be the first to say that I don't understand all other religions, but I am willing to and have learned from the believers of said religions.  And when I am wrong, call me on it, although as I don't assume about other religions much, I don't guess I will get many calls.

But lately, someone has decided Catholicism is a cult!  And they listed reasons, 6 of 7 wrong! and the 7th?  Something practiced by all Christian, Judiasm and Muslim religions!  I guess that makes 3/4 of the world a sect!  Duh!

Today we are going to discuss Annulment.  For those who know the truth, fine.  This is for the other 75% who don't have a clue, including many Catholics!

In Catholicism, we believe that when a man marries a woman, and it is blessed by the church, the love of Christ has entered into the union.  And I suspect every one hopes that as well.  But we must promise that we will allow that love to guide us in raising our children!  Yep, that may be Cultish, but one of the promises is to raise the children Catholic!

Now all is well for 1, 2 5, 10 20 years.  And then Mommy and Daddy get divorced!  Something went wrong!  Indeed it did, although, yep!  I was totally clueless (My family was not).

So I got a divorce.  I found out, via her shrink, for a non event about her brother raping her (he did not, they were just....well...I did not know it when I married her, and not until the divorce)., that she never loved me.

Excuse me?  I spent 20 years of my life married (plus a couple dating)!  But that was an epiphany.  And no, it was not a spite thing.  This was her shrink! (she still needs one BTW).

So we divorced.  I should have known she was and is a complete psycho!  her mother is and was! But I thought we could be peaceful!  hehehehehe!  yea I am stupid!

So you see the set up.  The Judge nailed her and her quota kid lawyer to the wall! (Never hire a quota kid if you want to win).

So she jumps in bed with some witless wonder, and I am sitting on a bunch of assets, and a lot of income.  Only child support now!

Then I met a goddess!  A woman who loves me, and yea she bitch slaps me (Note for Trudy - it is not always bad) when I deserve it (and sometimes when I don't).  We marry years later.  But her family is Catholic.  She is not a good one, but once a Catholic, always a Catholic!

So I do the Annulment thing.  It was long but not hard, as since my first wife never loved me (she used me to get away from an abusive situation), it was never in doubt.  I did not lie (I did not have to).  And she never contested it (although her stories to the kids leave a lot to be desired).

Why was the annulment so easy?  Did it make my children bastards?

The answer to the first is simple.  You cannot have the love of Christ in your Marriage when one party lied at the vows!  And the second part is just as easy.  No they are not.  We were married, legally and in the eyes of the church.  But Man is not infallible, and they need to acknowledge their errors.

The Church did. period.

So all you who get on your horse about annulment, chill!  It has nothing to do with bastardization!  It has nothing to do with making something disappear!

it has everything to do with realizing that sometimes, marriages are flawed from the get go!

So if you want to hate my religion, please do so for the right reasons!  not for some ignorant ones.


Comments (Page 10)
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on Nov 14, 2005

There's a reason why this book has lasted this long and is the #1 best seller of all times.

Which version?

on Nov 14, 2005
KFC as much as I like Doc, I am with you on this. I believe as you do.

But I also realize that this debate has been had by smarter and more worldly people than me to no real result...so I don't even go there....not because it isn't worth it but because Doc has stated his faith and what he believes, he is not asking any protestant how to become protestant.

He LIKES being Catholic. He studies it, he LOVES it. If there ever comes a time when he doesn't want to be Catholic he is educated enough to search out alternatives.

You have challeneged his beliefs, he has rebutted with his beliefs and reasons. No matter how fallible you think his reasoning, he was articulate and clear about his faith. He does not want to be converted or told his beliefs are wrong.

There is a diff between planting seeds and using them as bullets.



on Nov 14, 2005

KFC as much as I like Doc, I am with you on this. I believe as you do.

Well, I was not trying to convert anyone, just explaining Catholicism.  And like you, I am no scholar on the subject.  Faith is belief as you state.  So you really cant debate it as you would something like the War in Iraq or Child Welfare.  But I do not mind a discussion on the subject, and indeed I have enjoyed KFC and the education they have provided.  But in the end, it does come down to faith, and that is not facts, but belief.

There is a diff between planting seeds and using them as bullets.

Interesting quote!  I will have to remember that one.

on Nov 14, 2005
Well, I was not trying to convert anyone, just explaining Catholicism.


I get that and I actually learned some stuff I didn't know before!

But I do not mind a discussion on the subject, and indeed I have enjoyed KFC and the education they have provided.


Good and I agree with discussion on it, but it is hard to just discuss something you feel so strongly about, correction it is hard FOR ME to do it so I stay out, er, usually.

Interesting quote! I will have to remember that one.


Thanks just made that up! Doc you must inspire me to pithy one liners, of course I know I may be the only one who thinks of them that way!
on Nov 14, 2005

Good and I agree with discussion on it, but it is hard to just discuss something you feel so strongly about, correction it is hard FOR ME to do it so I stay out, er, usually.

It is not hard if you are just explaining, and not trying to convert.  Like in Politics.  So many times people jump on me, and I just let it roll off. WHy?  I am explaining not trying to convince.

Thanks just made that up! Doc you must inspire me to pithy one liners, of course I know I may be the only one who thinks of them that way!

No, I have seen several from you that are worthy of Bartletts!  And it is a Tova7/Tonya original!  As this is the Internet, someday, some will use it and attribute you!

Well done!

on Nov 14, 2005
Hi Tova7

Thanks for the imput. Just so you know...I like to see what makes people tick and to challenge people to use their minds to think about why they do believe what they do. Most really don't have any idea. They just kinda go with the flow and pick up any doctrine they get wind of.

I've been around in alot of religions and I've figured out a whole bunch of stuff but I'm still learning as well. I call myself a WIP (work in progress). If I'm shooting bullets I hope they are friendly ones!! The kind that wake you up but do no harm.....

I look at it this way....if I had some inside info on the stock that I knew you were about to invest in that was going to bring you down into ruin....should I tell you? Or would it be unloving and rude? Should I mind my own business and stay quiet? Or what if I had to yell at you to get you to see you were about to fall down into a manhole cover as you were walking down the street? Would it be okay for me to yell to keep you safe? Or should I just say....have a nice day softly as I see you about to step down into it?

That's how I look at this. Why should it be any different? After all this is eternal life we're talking about. I think we should talk about it but not if we get huffy and argumentative...then I stop. If someone doesn't like me to warn them or is not interested at all in discussing these things...I don't. It's not worth winning the argument and losing the friend.
on Nov 14, 2005
Hey Doc...I don't know how to box your quote but wanted to expound a bit on the one that says it comes down to faith not facts.

I don't believe in blind faith. Did I say that one before? I believe our faith is one built on evidence. God said himself everything hinged on the witnesses of two or three. Have you ever read that book....Case for Christ by Lee Strobel? Pretty interesting. He was the editor for the Chicago Tribune and an atheist. He was challenged and went on a mission. He investigated Christianity like one would a murder mystery. He looked at all the types of evidences...like eyewittness, circumstantial, corrobarating, physical evidence, etc. Every chapter starts with a famous murder he covered in the paper. He went all around the world to interview the experts in their fields to get his answers. In the end he was convinced that the bible was indeed what it claims to be...the infallible word of God.

I'm interested in facts not opinions. I'm a non-fiction type of person. That's why I kept pushing cuz I wanted you to see it's opinion not fact that was driving you. Have you ever been wrong before? I have. Always go to the source.....that's where it's at.

I've enjoyed our conversations also...if I get TOO pushy let me know ok?

on Nov 15, 2005

I don't believe in blind faith.

I dont either.  And there is evidence to support faith, but as Kirkegaard said, there is only so far you can go with facts, before you have to make the leap of Faith.  That Leap can take people in many directions, that that is why there are so many sects of Christianity.  So while you can argue one facet of your faith is based on the bible, I can also argue that mine is as well, from before the bible.  As my faith dates from Peter.  That does not mean we had the Apostle's creed back then, and a lot of fluff has been added and then subtracted from the faith.

We each beleive different facets and that is why we have different demoninations.  For no denomination is perfect, it cant be.  Religion is the invention of man, and anything man invents is by definition not perfect.

on Nov 15, 2005
That's how I look at this. Why should it be any different? After all this is eternal life we're talking about. I think we should talk about it but not if we get huffy and argumentative...then I stop. If someone doesn't like me to warn them or is not interested at all in discussing these things...I don't. It's not worth winning the argument and losing the friend.


I can see you are wise in your judgement so sorry if I offended you.

Doc has also said he enjoys these discussions, so without further ado, please continue. I am bowing out, well I can say that now....

And Doc I think you may just get this post up to 300 yet. Is that a record?
on Nov 15, 2005
One more thing...KFC you should become a registered user.
on Nov 16, 2005
Thanks Tova....but hey you don't haveta leave us here...I'm sure you have lots to add to this subject. As far as a registered user...what's the incentive here? Why is that? Can't I just continue as I am? My son also said that I should write regular articles but I guess I'm afraid I'll get carried away.

Am right with ya Doc on the man -made religion thing.....it's said that religion is man reaching up to God thinking he's in control and Christianity is God reaching down to man.

As far as Peter, do you know Peter's first sermon was on the resurrection? Peter and all the Apostles referred back to the OT and put all together teaching the new converts the OT and how Christ was the Messiah they had been waiting for. That's what I was referring to earlier about Christ in the OT. It's like a movie....you don't want to miss the start of it....when you come to the NT it's like you are starting in the middle of the movie.





on Nov 16, 2005

And Doc I think you may just get this post up to 300 yet. Is that a record?

For Religion?  Might be!  I thought all the hot ones were in politics and current events!

But you are always welcome.  This is a non-converting blog.  We discuss and debate, and enjoy the repartee'.  But I am not on a mission from God (I am not Blue either. )

on Nov 16, 2005

One more thing...KFC you should become a registered user.

I told her/him that.  They have some issues, but may!

on Nov 16, 2005

Thanks Tova....but hey you don't haveta leave us here...I'm sure you have lots to add to this subject. As far as a registered user...what's the incentive here? Why is that? Can't I just continue as I am? My son also said that I should write regular articles but I guess I'm afraid I'll get carried away.

Well, first benefit is it is free.  Then, if you want to write an article and get carried away, you can make the article private to yourself, or a select few people.  And if it comes to that, you can delete it as well.  Also, as like this article, you can set up to be notified when someone comments, so you dont have to check on it all the time (although that does not work 100%). 

You can also comment on most articles that are not open to the anonymous user.  We have some people that have not written an article yet, but comment on plenty and are well respected (even if they are wrong - Just Kidding! ).

But most of my articles, and indeed most of the articles here, are open to non-JU people, so you can continue to post as you are.  I wont call you Anonymous since you have already revealed somethings about yourself on HC's blog.  I am not saying anything really personal, just that you know a very highly respected member here in JU-Blog-land!

As for Peter, and starting a movie in the middle.  Well, George Lucas did that, and it seemed to work for him! (NOT that I am comparing the new testament to Star Wars!)

on Nov 16, 2005
Ok, Ok, OK, I'll sign up soon. I guess you wore me down D.G. When I get a round tuit!!! Soon I promise tho.

Ya me and HC are pals. We are stitched to the same cloth. I see her a few times a week as we go to the same church and all. She's my gurly friend.

Now I'm wondering...hmmmm what did I reveal? Hope it was good stuff!!!

Well I'm glad you're not comparing the non-fiction to the fiction and I'm not going to say..."May the Force be with you" But I will say genuinely....."May God Bless You."
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