A living Wage?

You be the First to support it

Published on September 28, 2004 By Dr Guy In Politics

Many in this forum have talked about how there should be a 'living wage', or an increase in the minimum wage. They expound on the noble virtues that would accompany such a government mandated porgram. (Government mandated since none who promote it seem to own businesses, and therefore cannot implement it themselves).

For those who still fail to grasp economics 101, I have a 3 part test.

#1: 2 boys come by your house and offer to cut your yard. One wants $10, the other one wants $20. Who do you hire?

#2: The government has decided that lawn cutting is worth $50. Do you:

A: pay a boy in the neighborhood to cut it and pay him $50
B: Hire the son of your housekeeper, an illegal alien who cannot complain to the government, to do it for $20
C: Cut it yourself.

#3: The government has decreed a minimum wage of $10/hr so that everyone has a living wage. Store #1 has work gloves made in the USA for $75, made by someone earning a living wage. Store #2 has the same gloves, the same quality for $25 because they were made in Mexico. Which pair do you buy?

Now before flippantly answering these questions, I suggest you check your history.

Answer truthfully. And then compare your answers to your rhetoric. Maybe you like to preach "do as I say, not as I do". I have yet to find anyone who can pass this test who supports a living wage or a radical increase in the minimum wage.

Comments (Page 3)

Suspeckted

on Sep 30, 2004

If the minimum wage were raised enough to be a "living wage", small businesses as we know them would cease to exist. They just couldn't afford it.

So therefore...

Living wage = bad idea.

Why must it be so black and white? Why not make exceptions for small businesses that cannot afford it? It doesn't have to be an all or nothing decision, but to discard the whole concept completely because it would be complicated is not a valid reason to me. Our government has undertaken many more mandates of far reaching difficulty, but those of you opposed to the concept of a living wage altogther...do you think there's a problem at all or not? If you didn't think there was a problem in the first place I can see why you don't want to explore this possible solution. Well, not necessarily a solution, but at least one way to address the problem.

They have hollered & hollered for *more* money. Now they have just about priced themselves out of a job.

Oversimplification of blame. I suppose that's why automanufacturing went to Mexico and overseas right? Hmm...if they were all still here the companies would still make billions...so do you think Greed had anything to do with it? How low should union workers be willing to go to keep jobs here? Should they agree to work for third world wages?

So, if the cost is too high, you'd rather buy gloves from the company that pays its workers 50 cents an hour and dumps its waste into a river?

Should I understand from your comment that you don't think American businesses do this?

That's not the impression I received from supporters of raising the minimum wage and/or the living wage in the Ownership Myth article.

Fair enough, I'll check it out. But in the meantime would you support a living wage if it wasn't supposed to support a family of four on one income? Let's say 2 40 hr/week incomes supporting a family of four? Would you support a living wage that would provide basic necessities under that scenario?

So the problem you have is with the analogy and not the point of it?

I was asked why I'd hire two different people to mow my lawn...well, I have an altruistic view of neighborhood and community. Give me another analogy and I'll give you another answer to better serve this so-called point.

drmiler

on Sep 30, 2004

They have hollered & hollered for *more* money. Now they have just about priced themselves out of a job.

Oversimplification of blame. I suppose that's why automanufacturing went to Mexico and overseas right? Hmm...if they were all still here the companies would still make billions...so do you think Greed had anything to do with it? How low should union workers be willing to go to keep jobs here? Should they agree to work for third world wages?

Actually it is! And besides my post says it *helped* not caused it!

eieio

on Sep 30, 2004

Also, wouldn't a living wage/increase in minimum wage result in inflation? If I know everyone's being paid $10 an hour, I will probably charge you the equilivant price of what I charge now..because A) you can afford it and

I have to pay my employees more. Why take a cut in my profit because I pay more?

Answer - yes it would increase inflation.

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 30, 2004

Unions cause trouble, but they are needed.

I don't know...somehow I think the mine I worked in would still have paid the same 9 bucks an hour (being 45 minutes from the closest town), given the same "no raises" rule, given the same long hours and dangerous work conditions without the unions.

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 30, 2004

If you're in a dead end McJob..not even advancing in those ranks..how could your conscience allow you to make such a gigantic undertaking as a family?

Or how about if you're in a job that HAS a future, but are pressured out to be replaced by newer workers who make less and given few options outside of minimum wage job.

I have 5 1/2 years of management experience, 6 years of restaurant experience, 1 year of retail experience, and about 7 years of factory experience, not the profile you would normally associate with a minimum wage worker, right? We started having children when we were financially stable and it appeared we would always be financially stable; nothing could have caused us to foresee this past year.

I am certain we will get back on our feet; I have always been a survivor and will always be so. But I am very tired of reading the prevalent opinion that poor people are dregs of society who are poor because they are somehow inferior. There IS such a thing as being down on one's luck, and it DOES happen in this day and age.

Dr Guy

on Sep 30, 2004

Wait a minute guys, you're only focusing on what big businesses or stuff like that could pay. Think about small businesses who are struggling to even make it with all these big chains taking over. You think they can afford to pay huge wages to workers whose only jobs are to sweep the floor and shelve items? No way! If the minimum wage were raised enough to be a "living wage", small businesses as we know them would cease to exist. They just couldn't afford it. Or they'd have to force their kids to work there, or they'd fire half their employees. The unemployment rate would SKYROCKET because small and medium sized businesses wouldn't be able to pay that many workers that much. Then, yeah, some people who normally wouldn't would be getting a living wage, but hundreds of thousands more would be completely out of work and earning NO wages, except what they can receive from welfare. Yes. That's EXACTLY what we need. More unemployment and more welfare recepients. Living wage = bad idea

Thanks to all the posting and pontificating, but MusiKitty hit the point dead square. most of us do not own a business, so arguing about raising the minimum wage or about a living wage is an exercise in debating. However, when it comes to real decisions we make in our lives every day, then all of a sudden we are not thinking about living wages, outsourcing or the minimum wage. We are thinking about maximizing our hard earned dollar's value for the services we receive.

While some called these exercises extreme, all (except the illegal alien housekeeper) I have encountered in my life, and I am not an old person at all. Well, at mid 40, some would say I am. However, they were not extreme, the local government did mandate a minimum amount to be paid for cutting grass (albeit it was not $50, but at the time it was 3x higher than I could hire a neighborhood kid to do it for), and I have found items that did not have the "made in the USA" label to be 1/2 to 2/3 cheaper because they were made in another country (want to see my $50 sunglasses I got for $10 in los Algodonges?).

Thanks for a very spirited discussion. And to all, there are no right and wrong answers. The questions were what would you do? And some would pay the higher prices to keep with their moral compass. However, they also usually have the means to do so. Most do not.

Insightful

on Sep 30, 2004

So much for Economics #101

EDUCATION & TRAINING: for a better job?

I have two friends in "IT." (Non-Union) Their jobs went to India. I think one of them runs a lawn service now.

Another associate, Mechanical Engineer.
(Non-Union)
His job ended up, in India as well. Currently works for Starbuck's as they pay for Healthcare.

A Friend: Commercial Property Manager:
(Non-Union)
Lost her job, to downsizing, due to jobs being sent offshore. Now works in a department store, selling jewelry.

Another Friend: Was a Tool and Die Specialist for 19 years. (Union) Now works for Home Depot. China relieved him of that position.

Technical Service Jobs? (Non-union)
presently being outsourced.
Computer Techs
Computerized Accounting Services.
Computerized Tax Services.
Medical Scan Diagnostic Readers.
Service Answer Desks.
........and this is merely a short list.

These people are not your high school drop outs folks. These are trained and educated people, through no fault of their own, lost there jobs.
Some were Union. Some were not.

OUTSOURCING IS GOOD?
I don't know how to face my friends that have lost these jobs, just so that I can buy things for less money.
I have a difficult time looking them in the eye.
They have a hard time looking back, as they are so embarrassed by their new forced life-style.

When you read in the newspaper, or hear on the TV news, that 5000 jobs at, so and so, corporation, are going to be lost, because, whatever reason:
"that's merely news."
When it begins to happen to your friends and associates,
"that's reality."

Outsourcing may appear to be a good thing, as long as it hasn't touched you, or your industry yet.
Should it one day reach you, it may not look so beneficial.

There's always a trade-off!
Benefit vs. Loss.

My gain: Lower prices, Yeah Me!
My buddies loss: Oops!

Dang! Never seen THAT one coming!

Insightful

on Sep 30, 2004

Gideon

Regarding Unions!

I do not wish to elaborate on this topic as it is a Red Herring for sure.
There are volumes that can be read and discussed on the pro's and con's involving unions.

However, I will say this; I believe that China to name but one and several other eastern and middle eastern nations, need to be allowed to develope and pursue unions.

I have a thing against child labor and people being taken advantage of, so that some big corporation might improve their bottom line.
Again, it comes down to morals, ethics, and having a conscience.

Madine

on Sep 30, 2004

Should I understand from your comment that you don't think American businesses do this?

No, I don't.

I have no problem paying cheaper because the cost of living in Mexico is cheaper. This is the whole point of free trade. If the company dumps waste into the river then I expect the US to block the granting of export licences under environmental grounds.

Why would the US have jurisdiction over the export of Mexico's goods? Do you think that factory workers in Mexico enjoy a comparable standard of living to factory workers in the US? Do you think Mexico's environmental laws are the same as the US's?

Mexico isn't the best example actually. It's getting better and other countries are worse.

Dr Guy

on Sep 30, 2004

These people are not your high school drop outs folks. These are trained and educated people, through no fault of their own, lost there jobs. Some were Union. Some were not.

Insightful,
Yes Econ 101! I have lost my job twice! Once due to Chapter 7, once due to Outsourcing. I am IT.

Did I cry and bemoan it? No, I just went about getting another job. The fact that mine could be outsourced meant I was too high paid (after the Y2K thing, many of us IT guys and gals were! But we sure had fun while the moola lasted!).

Getting another job was not overnight, and in both cases I did have to take a step back. But in both cases my knowledge and experience allowed me to oever come the setback and eventually get back to where I had been. Yes, it was 2-3 years in both cases, but that was my learning lesson.

And the secret? (Psst...). Dont give up! it takes months, and be prepared to take a step down. You will gain it back.

terpfan1980

on Sep 30, 2004

A quick comment on those jobs mentioned by Insightful that were lost.

I'd be very willing to bet that your friends that lost their jobs never had a second thought about buying whatever was cheapest before they found their jobs lost along the way.

I too have been a victim of "downsizing" and/or "outsourcing", and like Dr. Guy, I immediately set about finding a new job that would pay for my self and my family as we continued to be consumers in this great economy we live in.

Do I wish I could easily buy American (USA made), sure. But will I pay an outrageous difference in price to do so? Hell NO!

Do I wish that companies would stop outsourcing jobs overseas? Hell Yes - for multiple reasons. In the technical area, I despise picking up the phone and calling for support only to be routed via VOIP to some call center with people that can't speak english, don't understand my problem, can only follow a stupid script and have no real motivation to help me. Also because I'd like to see such jobs stays here in the U.S.A., but when labor is stupid to see that it has priced itself out of the market and refuses givebacks that would help it's employers better compete and insure long term job availability (witness Eastern Airlines back in the 80's, the current airlines even now, IT support from many companies and others) the employees get the shaft.

I've railed against greedy profit hungry stockholders and day traders that were only after profit and were too short sighted to reward companies that invest heavily in R&D (hopefully leading to better profits in the future), and I do encourage those I work for and with to be generous with their wallets and pocketbooks when it comes time to pay employees. I've even suggested to supervisors in the past that they should NOT increase my salary as much as they were about to and instead should take care of others around me.

Regardless though, I'm not going to sit back idly while the government tries to intervene in the marketplace knowing that their efforts will do nothing but worsen the situation while other competitors out there take advantage of our protections and benefits packages (and the costs there of) to hold their prices down and become predators in the market place.

Until someone can show me how we can control the workplace in other areas, (and that just isn't possible anymore as we have become part of the larger marketplace -- that "world community" that Clinton and others like him have tried so hard to make us be a good part of), any attempts to use regulation to control the market will be flawed and doomed. (And for evidence on the failure of our attempts to be part of a bigger "world community" and it's ill effects on our economy, just look at the fuss over tarriffs we put in place to help protect the steel industry here. The rest of the world community had a fit and threatened to retaliate against us in their own market places. The same in other cases).

Unless we are willing to go totally isolationist, attempts to institute living wages will do nothing but hurt us in the global economy, and in the end will cost us jobs and money that could be used to help make other lives better in other areas.

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 30, 2004

terp,

In our community, I have a "10%" rule as applies to Walmart. If the item is less than 10% more at the local store, I buy it there, rather than Walmart. If it is more than 10% cheaper at Walmart, though, economics dictate that I go to Walmart.

The exception is groceries. With one exception (Gatorade powder), I have found groceries cheaper at the local retailers. And I will NOT take their ads in and have Walmart match them; price checkers are supposed to get paid. My rule is, when they pay me as a price checker, I will be a price checker. Until then, I will shop at the competitor.

Dr Guy

on Sep 30, 2004

Send Resume to: Walmart, Inc. bentonville Ak, 34356 (JK).

With 4 kids, I wish I could be so magnanimous. I just look for the cheapest. However, I will pay more for a handcrafted item. Just because I know it is an original.

messybuu

on Sep 30, 2004

Yes, as long as the machines that'd replace all the service people and entry-level people who aren't worth businesses a living wage are efficient and taxes are raised so those people will be able to survive on welfare.

What would you purchase? A television for $100 or the same television (except a different brand) for $120?

Suspeckted

on Sep 30, 2004

That's it? That's the scenario? Uhh...fine the $100 one. But maybe these don't make sense to me since I'm not much of a good American consumer, I don't buy a lot of useless shit. When I buy something I want to make sure it's quality and that I won't have to worry about it failing my purpose for buying it. Yes, I've purchased foreign made bikes because they were better quality than equivalent US made bikes, but I bought them from small businesses where I could've gotten them cheaper elsewhere. Hypothetical situation or not I don't think you can win this one with me, just about any situation you can come up with I could fathom other important factors that would go beyond my decision making based simply on price.

Suspeckted

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