A living Wage?

You be the First to support it

Published on September 28, 2004 By Dr Guy In Politics

Many in this forum have talked about how there should be a 'living wage', or an increase in the minimum wage. They expound on the noble virtues that would accompany such a government mandated porgram. (Government mandated since none who promote it seem to own businesses, and therefore cannot implement it themselves).

For those who still fail to grasp economics 101, I have a 3 part test.

#1: 2 boys come by your house and offer to cut your yard. One wants $10, the other one wants $20. Who do you hire?

#2: The government has decided that lawn cutting is worth $50. Do you:

A: pay a boy in the neighborhood to cut it and pay him $50
B: Hire the son of your housekeeper, an illegal alien who cannot complain to the government, to do it for $20
C: Cut it yourself.

#3: The government has decreed a minimum wage of $10/hr so that everyone has a living wage. Store #1 has work gloves made in the USA for $75, made by someone earning a living wage. Store #2 has the same gloves, the same quality for $25 because they were made in Mexico. Which pair do you buy?

Now before flippantly answering these questions, I suggest you check your history.

Answer truthfully. And then compare your answers to your rhetoric. Maybe you like to preach "do as I say, not as I do". I have yet to find anyone who can pass this test who supports a living wage or a radical increase in the minimum wage.

Comments (Page 2)

Insightful

on Sep 29, 2004

Your article makes a valid point.
A bit extreme, but never the less it made sense.

I believe that if each of us does a little, no one has to really hurt themselves.

Zippo Lighters, Harley Davison Motor Cylces, Craftman Tools, and anything else that I can find American.
Don't shop at Wal-Mart either.
I don't buy Levi's any more either.

No, I don't belong to a union but can understand their purpose.
Sorry, I'm a white collar guy.

Always give 15% tip even when service is poor. Go higher then 20% when service is exceptional.

Don't need a BMW, as I believe a Corvette fits me just fine. My Winter car is also American and most of the parts are made here in the U.S.
Yes, I buy imported merchandise. Can't help it.

Would I pay you a litte more at your business because workers wages have increased? Yes! Probably!
Don't mean to push my beliefs on anyone else, that is just how I live.
Everyone has their own conscience and moral standards.

Do I go to church every Sunday? No!
But I do, sometimes.

Good article though.

Furry Canary

on Sep 29, 2004

Everyone has a moral conscience about a living wage, but not a common sense viewpoint.

Helix, the problem here is that not all people share the same perception of what 'common sense' is. One person's common sense may be based on economic theory, another's on a perceived moral high ground. It would be nice if we could discuss these differences of opinion, rather than just finger pointing.

oligarchy314

on Sep 29, 2004

I don't like the term "living wage". If you make minimum wage, you make enough to provide yourself with shelter, food, and water.

If people who complain that they aren't making a "living wage" want enough money to buy a nice house, car, and a widescreen tv....then they should have spent more time in school or spent more time building specialized job skills.

Texas Wahine

on Sep 29, 2004

If you make minimum wage, you make enough to provide yourself with shelter, food, and water.

That's a pretty broad statement . . . it's also false. While you could argue that *most* people who make minimum wage can provide themselves with food, shelter, and water (just like what an animal needs! woohoo!), it is clear that not everyone can. What do suggest for those people?

sandy2

on Sep 29, 2004

People in the USA are spoiled. Hell, I'm spoiled. I want my internet, my air-conditioning, my cruise control car, my newspaper delivered, my cable, and I'd have a hell of a time living on a minimum wage. But if I can only obtain a job paying minimum wage, then thats what I get. I should have gotten a better education. You can live on minimum wage. You don't need a car unless you live in detroit, you don't need a house, you don't need a newspaper or even a TV. You can eat bread and milk and instead of spending money on cigs spend it on investing.

I would pay the lower cost kid the money to cut my lawn, although more likley I would hire a lawn service, I would cut the grass myself in the second instance and I would buy the mexican glove. Outsourcing is good people, having cheaper products helps the economy more than it hurts to loose a thousand jobs.

Suspeckted

on Sep 29, 2004

Why would anybody pay two people to do one job?

For God's sake we're talking about getting the fucking lawn mowed here...not a 9-5 factory job. Why do parents pay their children an allowance to make their beds and set the table at dinner...because they can and they want to teach them some responsibility. I'm not going to hire a 35 year old to mow my lawn from a professional service...I'd hire some kid to increase some community connection in my neighborhood.

Because. It'd have to be enough so that somebody could support a family of four. There was a huge talk on how the minimum wage should be do that, so a living wage should be able to as well.

Source? I think most people here who support a living wage think that's pretty rediculous...are we talking about a single income or two? And what of the limitations I suggested?

Gideon MacLeish

on Sep 29, 2004

No, I don't belong to a union but can understand their purpose.

I could understand their purpose 100 years ago. Now, however, the union has become as much a monster as big business and needs to be eliminated.

sandy2

on Sep 29, 2004

Unions cause trouble, but they are needed. I wish we could limit them though. We need a balance of business and union. Now the unions are too powerfull. Teachers shouldn't, for example, have tenure.

MusiKitty

on Sep 29, 2004

Wait a minute guys, you're only focusing on what big businesses or stuff like that could pay. Think about small businesses who are struggling to even make it with all these big chains taking over. You think they can afford to pay huge wages to workers whose only jobs are to sweep the floor and shelve items? No way! If the minimum wage were raised enough to be a "living wage", small businesses as we know them would cease to exist. They just couldn't afford it. Or they'd have to force their kids to work there, or they'd fire half their employees. The unemployment rate would SKYROCKET because small and medium sized businesses wouldn't be able to pay that many workers that much. Then, yeah, some people who normally wouldn't would be getting a living wage, but hundreds of thousands more would be completely out of work and earning NO wages, except what they can receive from welfare. Yes. That's EXACTLY what we need. More unemployment and more welfare recepients. Living wage = bad idea.

messybuu

on Sep 29, 2004

So the problem you have is with the analogy and not the point of it?

Source? I think most people here who support a living wage think that's pretty rediculous...are we talking about a single income or two? And what of the limitations I suggested?

That's not the impression I received from supporters of raising the minimum wage and/or the living wage in the Ownership Myth article.

drmiler

on Sep 29, 2004

No, I don't belong to a union but can understand their purpose.

You want to know what's *helping* out-sourcing? Look to the unions. They have hollered & hollered for *more* money. Now they have just about priced themselves out of a job.

Solitair

on Sep 30, 2004

Interesting arguements here.

I'd like to focus on the gloves for a minute. If the US cannot manufacture the gloves at a price that could possibly compete, then surely it should not be manufacturing gloves? I have no problem which choosing to buy local goods at slightly inflated prices to support local businesses but I would never pay three times the price or even twice the price. At that point I'll tell the local business to change what they produce or make to somehting that is economically viable. To force the support of an economically non viable produce is completely stupid.

I would also be against the term 'living wage'. I do support the concept of a minimum wage though, which should be set at a level higher than unemployment benefit. It should encourage people to go out and work, not gaurentee them a certain lifestyle.

paul.

Madine

on Sep 30, 2004

I would never pay three times the price or even twice the price.

So, if the cost is too high, you'd rather buy gloves from the company that pays its workers 50 cents an hour and dumps its waste into a river?

on Sep 30, 2004

Yes. I'm poor. The poorer you, the less you can pay to support USA.

I agree that job export to outside usa should be limited but not too limited. After all, it also keeps prices down, but I don't want USA to export so much jobs that jobless people number skyrocket.

Solitair

on Sep 30, 2004

Madine,
yes. If the difference in cost is too high I would rather buy gloves from the cheaper source. I have no problem paying cheaper because the cost of living in Mexico is cheaper. This is the whole point of free trade. If the company dumps waste into the river then I expect the US to block the granting of export licences under environmental grounds.

The US and other developed countries need to be realistic about what they can and cannot compete in. I do not want to see subsidised industries (whether subsidised by my excess payment or buy the government). If the cost of living is higher than the enhanced productivity or technology then dump the product or industry and specialise. I want to see the workers changed to modernised or high value industries instead. Spend that subsidy on retraining, this is an area the poorer countries cannot compete with. Then I could buy my high value item from the American company. More importantly, the workers would then truely be earning that 'living wage' for doing a high valued job.

Paul.

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