A living Wage?

You be the First to support it

Published on September 28, 2004 By Dr Guy In Politics

Many in this forum have talked about how there should be a 'living wage', or an increase in the minimum wage. They expound on the noble virtues that would accompany such a government mandated porgram. (Government mandated since none who promote it seem to own businesses, and therefore cannot implement it themselves).

For those who still fail to grasp economics 101, I have a 3 part test.

#1: 2 boys come by your house and offer to cut your yard. One wants $10, the other one wants $20. Who do you hire?

#2: The government has decided that lawn cutting is worth $50. Do you:

A: pay a boy in the neighborhood to cut it and pay him $50
B: Hire the son of your housekeeper, an illegal alien who cannot complain to the government, to do it for $20
C: Cut it yourself.

#3: The government has decreed a minimum wage of $10/hr so that everyone has a living wage. Store #1 has work gloves made in the USA for $75, made by someone earning a living wage. Store #2 has the same gloves, the same quality for $25 because they were made in Mexico. Which pair do you buy?

Now before flippantly answering these questions, I suggest you check your history.

Answer truthfully. And then compare your answers to your rhetoric. Maybe you like to preach "do as I say, not as I do". I have yet to find anyone who can pass this test who supports a living wage or a radical increase in the minimum wage.

Comments (Page 1)

Texas Wahine

on Sep 28, 2004

You know what? My husband and I are not wealthy by any means, but we always pay others well. I have a neighbor kid who comes around asking to mow the lawn . . . she tells me she likes to do it and doesn't need to be paid . . . I still pay her $5 (I have a very small yard), and then I ask her to mow my next door neighbor's front yard too and give her an extra $2 - 3. When I get pizza delivered, I give a tip. When I have my groceries carried out to my minivan, I give a tip. When I had my computer fixed, I gave a tip. I am willing to pay others well for the services they provide for me and my family.

I can understand and appreciate your argument against a living wage. However, I make personal sacrifices (monetary and otherwise) for the benefit of others on a daily basis. I am not asking anyone to "do as I say and not as I do." Most of us are hypocrites in one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assert that none of those who would support a living wage are not in the position to, or willing to, behave in a manner that supports their beliefs.

Good post.

Madine

on Sep 28, 2004

1. $10

2. C

3. USA (otoh, I know I am in the minority on this. The average person shops at WalMart much more often than me.)

cactoblasta

on Sep 28, 2004

Most of us are hypocrites in one way or another, but I don't think it's fair to assert that none of those who would support a living wage are not in the position to, or willing to, behave in a manner that supports their beliefs.

Too true.

To answer your questions:

1: $20 (paying one kid $10 will mean he/she'll do a typical job; by paying $20 I can use the threat of going to the cheaper kid to get better service and would probably get a good job anyway)
2: let the grass grow free. I'm not paying 5 times/ 2.5 times as much to get the same job (note that minimum wage activists aren't asking for that either)
3: I'd buy the Mexican ones because I'd prefer to support struggling Mexican workers than struggling Americans - the US is big and strong and can look after its unemployed. Mexico can't.

NB: I haven't been flippant here. This is my normal thought process. I'll almost always pay a bit above the normal, accepted price for something in order to get a better job or to reward someone who I think is a good person. And I'm not an American so I'm not going to pay more for American goods - Australian goods yes, but not American.

stevendedalus

on Sep 29, 2004

The examples you give are totally over the top.

bill bloggs

on Sep 29, 2004

all horseshit.the world is run on false economies.

Mr_Frog

on Sep 29, 2004

The problem here, at least with consumer goods, is this...

If it is a choice of manufacturing a product in the United States at a higher price, or another country at a lower price, you will hardly see a noticable difference in price at purchase time. Why? Because most companies would just charge the same amount to the consumer and keep the extra money as profit (or perhaps sell it for 5% less than the competitor and still take a healthy profit). The idea is to reduce cost to the company, not total dollars of income. In any case, my answers:

1.) I'd pay the $20 kid, because I'd probably get better service or more detail work out of him.

2.) Well, since I'm advocating child labour by having a child cut my lawn, I hardly think this is relevant, because I'm too cheap to hire a professional gardener to do it for me. I'd just have *my* kids mow the lawn for free.

3.) See above.

-- B

WiseFawn

on Sep 29, 2004

Community by community living wage laws are passing. The people are choosing them. Living wages are not picked by and forced by the government and will vary from area to area. The living wage for Mt. Vernon Ohio will be different than for Santa Rosa California. Yes, I will stand behind my convictions and give a living wage.
http://jim-wisefawn.joeuser.com/index.asp?AID=25169 Link

Suspeckted

on Sep 29, 2004

#1 - #2 Your options seem very incomplete...why not hire them both to switch off every time it needed to be mowed? Or hire one to mow your lawn and tell the other he could clear the sidewalk and driveway of snow in the winter? And how in the hell would the government decide what lawn mowing is worth $50? Just because it's a hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it should be completely unbelievable. Since I would be the personal employer I'd have no problem making a personal assessment of who was in more need of the money as well. If one of the boys was rich and was looking for some extra cash and one would be actually using the money to add to the family grocery fund then my choice would be fairly obvious.

#3 - If I felt I could afford them I would purchase the $75 gloves, but because I myself have not always made a living wage I am financially struggling and if I had to have them I'd buy the cheaper pair.

My real scenario: coffee is a great luxury and as such I have committed myself to purchasing fair trade coffee. I could easily buy the same quality coffee for much less, usually about 50% less per pound. Yes, there are many things where I will buy the cheaper product...but I will not shop at Wal-mart and I try to buy American products, particularly from small businesses whenever I can.

Living Wage Defense:
My father will tell you he is a very conservative man and he and I have always been the most vocal in our family when it comes to political issues like this. Though we generally disagree, my father has accepted that a Living Wage can be interpreted many different ways, some of which may even be acceptable to conservatives. Do 16 year olds need to make a "living wage?" probably not? Maybe there should be a wage higher rate that one receives as long as they are a full-time student in college. Living Wage could be something that someone applies for just like TANF or other assistance program. I'd still contend that Congress should be prohibited from increasing their own wages unless they are increasing the minimum wage at the same time...how can they claim that they need more money (over $150,000/yr) and the rest of the country doesn't? It sickens me.

Castle

on Sep 29, 2004

If we want to compete in a global economy we need to redefine the term "living wage". I fail to understand how a politician can promise to create more jobs at home while increasing the huge wage gap that already exists between us and many other nations. Businesses will only have more reason to go out-of-country. Oh, and penalizing businesses for hiring foreign workers is not a solution - for those of you that subscribe to the Kerry fix.

messybuu

on Sep 29, 2004

1) I'd pay $20 if the service was better. However, if it was almost identical, I don't think anybody except a liar would pay for the $20 kid.

2) Do it myself.

3) Unless the American version was fashionable (i.e. brandnames), I'd go with the Mexican one. I like to support American made, but not when it's much more expensive thant he alternative.

2: let the grass grow free. I'm not paying 5 times/ 2.5 times as much to get the same job (note that minimum wage activists aren't asking for that either)

I"m not sure. Some people actually insist that the minimum wage should be able to support a family of four, which would at least double it. Besides, this is about a living wage. Same with cologne.

Why would anybody pay two people to do one job?

And how in the hell would the government decide what lawn mowing is worth $50? Just because it's a hypothetical scenario doesn't mean it should be completely unbelievable.

Because. It'd have to be enough so that somebody could support a family of four. There was a huge talk on how the minimum wage should be do that, so a living wage should be able to as well.

Since I would be the personal employer I'd have no problem making a personal assessment of who was in more need of the money as well.

Many disagree and believe the government should force companies to pay people what they feel is fair despite the ramifications.

If one of the boys was rich and was looking for some extra cash and one would be actually using the money to add to the family grocery fund then my choice would be fairly obvious.

If we want to get into details, it's also possible the child that is going to use it for food does a complete half-ass job while the other one pays attention to detail.

Madine

on Sep 29, 2004

The examples you give are totally over the top.

I don't think so. Recently I had the choice of buying shoes made in Italy vs. shoes made in China. They seemed to be of comparable quality, but the shoes made in Italy were twice as expensive.

Madine

on Sep 29, 2004

I think the relevent question though is, "How much more are YOU willing to pay for (insert item here) to have it made with a living wage?"

stevendedalus

on Sep 29, 2004

I think the relevent question though is, "How much more are YOU willing to pay for (insert item here) to have it made with a living wage?"

You make it sound that the economic history of this country just started with outsourcing.

Because most companies would just charge the same amount to the consumer and keep the extra money as profit (or perhaps sell it for 5% less than the competitor and still take a healthy profit).

Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

messybuu

on Sep 29, 2004

Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

If businesses are not profiting, are they going to be able to stay in business?

messybuu

on Sep 29, 2004

Yes, the issue is not living as much as profiteering.

If businesses are not profiting, are they going to stay in business?

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