Precisely, joe...and you can't mandate that employees do that. It just skews the system.

This is why I strongly feel a set of financial incentives needs to be set in place for employers to pay their employees a fair wage, rather than penalties for noncompliance. By giving a tax credit for every dollar spent on employee wages and benefits, the majority of employers should be more than happy to pay a living wage.

Instead of demonizing companies who outsource who pay minimum wage why not put the blame where it belongs - consumers.

Instead of arguing how the government needs to force businesses to do this or that, why not have the government force people to buy American made goods? Put electric collars on everyone and everytime they buy yet another Chinese made good at Walmart or whatever it gives them a little jolt.

It really annoys me when people try to put the blame on businesses as they themselves can't be bothered to spend an extra buck on an American made good.  When I buy things, I look to see where it's from and what alternatives are available. It takes a bit more effort but I try to do my part.

I remember being in San Francisco on a media tour talking to people who were very anti-business and arguing how businesses need to pay their workers more money and then what do they do? Go out to their Korean-made vehicles to go home.

I'm in the Computer Sceince feild. Everythime, I hear about a job being outsourced to India, or Gabon, or whatever nation its trendy and profitable to export jobs to this year, it makes me wonder: maybe I should simply leave the country. It's reasonable, no? I have no serious attatchment to America---hey I love this country, but if the jobs aren't out here I'm not about to let pride stand in the way of living. Foreigners stream into America daily in search of jobs--any jobs. Why not me too, except in reverse. The cost of living in India is low. Maybe I should follow my job and my common sense and go where the money is and not stay simple because I was born here.

Its just a thought, but isn't this what globalism is about?

You want to know why IT people get outsourced to India?

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person.  But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out.

Since you're graduating, let me give you some advice: Your school that tells you that your CS degree entitles you to a $50k per year salary right out of college is doing you a disservice.  CS people out of college are not worth $50k anywhere. Not even in California. They may be able to find some companies that foolishly pay that much right out of college but they are the ones who will ultimately end up outsourcing their job when they wake up.

And I say that as a software developer mind you. A good experienced software developer is worth their weight in gold (figuratively). But the typical CS graduate is just a chunk of clay that takes years to get reasonable productivity out of normally.

10 years ago, a CS graduate could expect to make $25k to $30k.  Today, they seem to expect double that. Not realistic and that's why the jobs are going overseas.

Reply #70 By: Draginol - 10/6/2004 10:56:29 AM You want to know why IT people get outsourced to India? I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person. But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out. Since you're graduating, let me give you some advice: Your school that tells you that your CS degree entitles you to a $50k per year salary right out of college is doing you a disservice. CS people out of college are not worth $50k anywhere. Not even in California. They may be able to find some companies that foolishly pay that much right out of college but they are the ones who will ultimately end up outsourcing their job when they wake up. And I say that as a software developer mind you. A good experienced software developer is worth their weight in gold (figuratively). But the typical CS graduate is just a chunk of clay that takes years to get reasonable productivity out of normally. 10 years ago, a CS graduate could expect to make $25k to $30k. Today, they seem to expect double that. Not realistic and that's why the jobs are going overseas.

Draginol is 100% correct in his assesment. I've been in the computer field for over 15 years and an IT Assistant manager and manger for the last 4 of the 15. It fell on me to sort out whose resume hit my bosses desk. And the figures he's quoting are consistant with what I saw. And VERY, very few were worth half that much.

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k. Even after the bubble, I get IT people submitting resumes demanding $80k for their services. Sorry, but I can train a high school graduate in a year to be a decent IT person. But most companies don't have the time and inclination to do that so they just farm it out.

Draginol, you are correct, but didn't I make this point? Actually, I was not one of the $100k guys, just $89. But my remedy was to bone up on skills that could not be outsourced. Like CNE, CCNA and MCSE. That is why, altho I am not making $89k now, I am not doing bad!

There are ways to improve low income wages without imposing a poor solution.

Such as what?

I'll tell you: Because during the dot-com era IT people deluded themselves into thinking that their jobs were worth $100k.

I agree with you, those jobs were not worth 100k, but haven't you argued elswhere that the free market decides what a person makes? Wasn't it the free market that was paying them 100k? I don't think those jobs were worth 100k and I don't think that CEO jobs are worth millions.

Fair enough, Abe, but you're not the only voice in the market.

Anyway, take a look at the Global market: It would seem that many other people also think that American labor is overpriced.

I think that Draginol is right, not just about IT jobs in particular, but about U.S. jobs in general: The problem isn't that our minimum wage is too low, it's that our median wages are too high by global standards. We're trying to raise the minimum wage beyond all reason or sanity, because at its current level it just doesn't provide us with the lifestyle we're accustomed to.

You know what "globalization" means? It means that the next generation of Americans is going to discover that they are waaay spoiled compared to the rest of the world. They're going to have to start living responsibly, carefully, and frugally, and compete in price with workers from China and India, or they're going to find themselves out of work.

And the next person that talks about "jobs Americans won't do" gets punched in the head. You want to get paid? Here's a hint: Migrant farm workers in California seem to think that their lives are better since they crossed the border. So there's your basis for comparison. Either start picking cabbages, or live like the Mexicans who didn't make the journey across the desert to get this job. But don't come complaining to me because McDonald's didn't offer you mad stock options.