Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on November 15, 2005 By Dr Guy In Blogging

Recently there has been a spate of "how could they" blogs that trashed working mothers.  I know the intent was not to trash all of them, but in their zeal to demonstrate their anti-feminism, they caught a lot of innocent mothers as well.  Including mine.

Let me tell you about her.

She was Valedictorian of her class.  She would have gone to college except my aunt got polio, so the money was not there.  She wound up marrying a loser.  Had some kids (we are catholic, this was the 50s - get over it).

I am second oldest, and when I was 4 (ages at this time, 7-4-3-1), the loser left.  Only to be seen once more in my life.  So my mother went to work.

Wait!  What about Child support!  Alimony?  Get real!  This was the 60s!  yea, the court ordered it!  My mother got 1 check!

I was the man of the house, so I assumed a lot of responsibilities at the tender age of 6.  I would get up, dress, make breakfast and my mother's lunch.  And then wake the others.  I did this for 2 years. Until.....

Eventually she met and fell in love with another man.  A Navy guy.  They married, and he shipped off to England for 2 years.  So while he was in England, I went back to doing what I had been doing.  My sister, an angel now, was a waste then.  Even she will tell you.

So yes, I grew up fast.

Then he came home.  He was still young.  Wanted some children of his own.  So my Sister was born.  My god-daughter! I have written about her before. It was a tough labor and my step father was a bad sleeper, so I had to wake him and tell him of his daughter.

Then he went to Nam.  My mother went back to work.  there were 5 of us then.  I was pre teens.  He came back, and decided to switch to the army.  The army screwed up big time! First they promised no BT, then they made him!  They they found the agreement! So he was re-promoted and assigned 3000 miles away.  We packed up and drove out.  Got there, and the new post decided there was a mistake!  No, the real post was 3000 miles away!  300 miles from where we had been!

We headed back.  And during that journey, someone ran out of BC pills. (we are Catholic - they are not illegal - learn or get over it)  And conceived twins.

They were born in Letterman.  Now there were 7 of us, and I was changing diapers on 3, before I was 15.

I love every one of my siblings.  Everyone is a god's gift to my mother!  And me.

And as things go, that man left.  Decided he wanted some fresh thang!  Not one burdened with 7 brats.

So she had to work again.  At least this time, the courts were more proactive, and this guy did send some money.  Not a lot.  His trophy bride required most of it.  But some.

So yes, I raised my siblings.  Not alone.  All of us took turns changing diapers, babysitting, and helping.  Kind of like they did 100 years ago before the noblesse oblige of the current aristocracy took over.

We did it, because we were needed.  We did it, and we learned.  Learned the value of a buck.  learned the value of hard work.  Learned the value of pitching in.

Now some have decided my mother was a bad person.  Why?  Because she could not provide for 7 children while not working. When she was a single parent.

Some say that.  But I see a strong woman.  Whose only fault is in bad choices in men.  I see a strong woman who I admire, and fight with tooth and nail!  I see a strong woman that the likes no longer exists in today's society.  For in all those years, when she was the sole bread winner, she never accepted a dime of government assistance or charity.  Not a damn dime (and neither did I in my darkest hour either).

I am sorry that those of you with plenty and have forgotten your dearth do not see that.  I am sorry that my mother is not up to your Utopian standards.  I am sorry you have forgotten what it is like to scratch and claw for the next day's meal.  When dinner is mac and cheese (I hate it!).

I am sorry my mother does not live up to your standards.  But I am sorry for you.  For I am not sorry for my mother and what she did.  And I am not sorry for any of my siblings.  No matter how many should have been aborted.  In my opinion, none of them should have, and I appreciate every one of them.

And I am not sorry for losing a childhood to help her.  I guess I am warped.  I really enjoyed my children's childhood!  Even bought my son a race car set he did not ask for just so I could play with him.

I am not sorry.  I am not ashamed.  I am proud of my mother, and who I am.

period.


Comments (Page 1)
3 Pages1 2 3 
on Nov 15, 2005
I am not sorry for helping to raise my siblings.  Period
on Nov 15, 2005
You are SERIOUSLY misrepresenting the exchange on Tova's thread, Dr.Guy.
on Nov 15, 2005
You are SERIOUSLY misrepresenting the exchange on Tova's thread, Dr.Guy


TW--you know I think you are great, right? Ok, keep that in mind

I don't think Dr. Guy is misrepresenting it all that much. There's a lot of "working women" bashing that is going on over there. It's pretty disgusting, to be honest.

That said, Dr. Guy, I believe that your mother would have fit into Tova's disclaimer--women who needed to work.

My mother on the otherhand, would not. Probably why I find Tova's thread to be so---well--horrible.
on Nov 15, 2005
Very interesting article, DG. I never knew these things about you.

People need other people. And people who say they don't are wrong. It's not a life lived if you don't have other people. Your mom did the best she did with what she had--and I bet she's very thankful that she had you.

I know I"m thankful that you're here!
on Nov 15, 2005
I don't think Dr. Guy is misrepresenting it all that much. There's a lot of "working women" bashing that is going on over there. It's pretty disgusting, to be honest.


My problem is not so much "working moms" (I was a working mom myself for several years) as it is the whole "chasing your tail to buy crap and spending no time with your kids" deal.

The scenario that Dr.Guy described on Tova's thread, and which he has now made a personal example of here is very touching. I've no doubt that his mother loves him and siblings very much. I think the fact that he and his siblings turned out so well is very much an endorsement of the care and maternal abilities of his mother.

I also think that he's lucky.

A house full of seven kids where the adults are always at work and the older kids are forced to be surrogate parents for the younger children is a recipe for disaster. As I said on the other thread, I don't think it's ideal.

There are so many demands and needs that must be met even with a single child. I think working and caring for a child is a delicate balance. When there are several children to care for, it's infinitely more difficult to maintain that balance. I'm impressed that his mother, apparently, was able to do so, but I wouldn't recommend it.

And just as an FYI, what I found horrible and disgusting was Dr.Guy's characterization of the stay-at-home moms on Tova's thread as "fat, lazy, and dumb".
on Nov 15, 2005

You are SERIOUSLY misrepresenting the exchange on Tova's thread, Dr.Guy.

No, if you read my exchange.  I am not.

on Nov 15, 2005

That said, Dr. Guy, I believe that your mother would have fit into Tova's disclaimer--women who needed to work.

ANd I can accept that.  However when I advanced my mother over there, I was told my mother was somehow a misfit for having 7 children.  I am not advocating anything but I did bristle at that, and I do resent the implication that I and my siblings are some how deprived for daring to help my mother. 

on Nov 15, 2005

know I"m thankful that you're here!

Glad you are free!  ANd thank you for coming by!  Now we can really talk again!

on Nov 15, 2005

A house full of seven kids where the adults are always at work and the older kids are forced to be surrogate parents for the younger children is a recipe for disaster.

I am sorry TW.  I do not agree.  I will agree that it can be.  But then that is dictated by the rules of the house.  You see, ours never was a house of priveledge.  We all pitched in. Much as the pioneers did.  We saw the others, and yes we envied them.  But we knew we could get ahead by being a family.  All of us.  Today, some of us have a great priveledge in that they have a stay at home mom.  Indeed my kids do. IN that I do take credit and sorrow.

But I advanced my situation and was told my mother was criminal. ANd that I was an abused child.  Read the comments.  Or do I have to cut and paste.

YOu have not had a fairy tail life.  But you do not know real pain yet.  ANd I hope you never do.  I hope none of you ever do.  I do not want anyone to grow up as fast as I did when I was being the man of the house at 6.  But my mother sacraficed a lot more than I ever did.  And I do get my hackles up when someone insinuates that any of my siblings should have been aborted because my mother could not support them.

You all know my feelings on that, and post partum abortion is even more abhorent.

I am sorry you feel that way. I do not appologize for my feelings.

on Nov 15, 2005
Now some have decided my mother was a bad person.


Where did anyone call your mother a bad person?

I am sorry that those of you with plenty and have forgotten your dearth do not see that.


You KNOW that this is a false assumption. My husband is an E5. Dharma's is an E6. We're not wealthy. There is no "plenty". We make sacrifices to be able to stay home with our little ones. I could write a long list of things I, and my family, forgoes in order to keep me home.

I am sorry my mother does not live up to your standards.


a. You cited her situation under the guise of being a "family member"...no one impugned your mother.
b. Your depiction of your mother's plight on Tova's thread left out many key details, including the fact that she was abandoned twice and was forced to care for her children all by herself.
c. No one's said that she doesn't meet their standards. The choice to have more children than one can provide for financially and emotionally is something I don't think is wise or beneficial. I have no problem with her character or mothering abilities. The only thing I have spoken against is the choice to have so many children when there would be no one home to care for them.

No matter how many should have been aborted. In my opinion, none of them should have, and I appreciate every one of them.


NO ONE said ANYONE should be aborted. This is beneath you, Dr.Guy. You're the only one who has suggested that you or your siblings should have been aborted.

There ya go, there's the main misleading elements of your article. Care to explain why you would paint stay-at-home moms with the "fat, lazy, and dumb" brush?
on Nov 15, 2005

And just as an FYI, what I found horrible and disgusting was Dr.Guy's characterization of the stay-at-home moms on Tova's thread as "fat, lazy, and dumb".

You might want to link that.  Since I never did say that either.

on Nov 15, 2005

Here they are.

10 is too young to stay by oneself.  I know you and Gideon had a row about CPS, but in your case it was your decision.  I would never allow my son to stay alone at that age.  Now he is 12, and I dont mind as long as he calls me when I am out (he does not get up before noon - kids!).

10 is much too young.  They had best start thinking of him, BOTH OF THEM, than their careers.  I have told my Boss on several occassions - Sorry, MY SON is sick, and I am going home.

And even my 12, I dont allow to be home alone more than a couple of hours. But as he is babysitting age (I was at that age), I allow him to babysit himself.  Less than his slug of a mother does too from the stories I hear.

You know what to do.  I will leave it at that.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Rant!  Here is a good place!  They remind me of the parents in Cheaper by the Dozen (Steve Martin version).  Not of the dozen.
--------------------------------------------------------
In this estrogen fest, can I interject something?  I have already stated about the parents you describe.  Let me tell you about another set.

7 Kids, NCO, mother has to work.  Kids are not bad.  But they are kids.  They do kid things.  Never not unsupervised.  But the supervisor is mid teens mostly.  That is all there is available.

Parents never impose.  Kids dont do soccer.  You kind of have to have a parent able to be involved for that.

7 great kids. 

Perhaps we should stick to the subject.  And leave the the others to their means.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That has always been the norm in society before.  You cannot run a large houselhold without relying on the older ones to take care of the younger ones.  Some people believe in the sanctity of life, and they take responsibility for their decisions.  That does not mean they let the older ones run wild, but they do give them all chores, and some of the chores are to watch the younger ones.

Just because Abortion is legal and acceptable does not mean that just anyone is going to run out and get one.  Many still oppose it on moral, ethical and religious grounds.  And as my mother use to tell us when we did complain - "Which one of you should I have aborted"?

I think it is very presumptious of anyone to decide how many children a couple has would be appropriate.  Said family never was on the public dole, never got any WIC or Welfare, altho they were qualified.  I think perhaps we have grown fat, dumb and lazy to now start dictating how many children , and how those children are taught responsiblity,  just because they dont have steak and filet mignon for dinner every night.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
No, I mean do not make generalilzations about all families where the mother works.  SOmetimes it is for convenience.  SOmetimes it is out of necessity.  Dont throw the ones doing it out of necessity in with the ones doing it for convenience.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I beleive you made your point here.
--------------------------------------------------------
We dont count, even in court.  We are second class citizens.

on Nov 15, 2005
I think perhaps we have grown fat, dumb and lazy to now start dictating how many children , and how those children are taught responsiblity, just because they dont have steak and filet mignon for dinner every night.

Exactly.

And please show me where ANYONE told you that your mother should have aborted ANY of her children.
on Nov 15, 2005

Where did anyone call your mother a bad person?

And having so many kids the mother "has" to work to feed them, is irresponsible. Because she is not raising them, no matter how good the kids are.

You KNOW that this is a false assumption. My husband is an E5. Dharma's is an E6. We're not wealthy. There is no "plenty". We make sacrifices to be able to stay home with our little ones. I could write a long list of things I, and my family, forgoes in order to keep me home.

You misread.  Try again.

a. You cited her situation under the guise of being a "family member"...no one impugned your mother.
b. Your depiction of your mother's plight on Tova's thread left out many key details, including the fact that she was abandoned twice and was forced to care for her children all by herself.
c. No one's said that she doesn't meet their standards. The choice to have more children than one can provide for financially and emotionally is something I don't think is wise or beneficial. I have no problem with her character or mothering abilities. The only thing I have spoken against is the choice to have so many children when there would be no one home to care for them.

See above.  And get off the military kick.  That was what my step was. It is not an indictment on any military.

NO ONE said ANYONE should be aborted. This is beneath you, Dr.Guy. You're the only one who has suggested that you or your siblings should have been aborted.

I am referring to couples who have more kids than they can afford

Yea?  You call it then.  Sorry, I dont do to well with euphamisms,

There ya go, there's the main misleading elements of your article. Care to explain why you would paint stay-at-home moms with the "fat, lazy, and dumb" brush?

Exactly. Hook. line and sinker.  Sorry if I got upset and decided not to start a flame war on her Blog.  I do respect her, I just dont agree here.  So I wrote my own.

Thank you for helping me to prove my points.

on Nov 15, 2005

I think perhaps we have grown fat, dumb and lazy to now start dictating how many children , and how those children are taught responsiblity, just because they dont have steak and filet mignon for dinner every night.

Exactly.

And please show me where ANYONE told you that your mother should have aborted ANY of her children.

Guess I just read into "too many kids".  Guess you read into " a dumb NCO". So how do you reduce the number of kids?  As far as a Dumb NCO, we can ignore them.

3 Pages1 2 3