Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on November 15, 2005 By Dr Guy In Blogging

Recently there has been a spate of "how could they" blogs that trashed working mothers.  I know the intent was not to trash all of them, but in their zeal to demonstrate their anti-feminism, they caught a lot of innocent mothers as well.  Including mine.

Let me tell you about her.

She was Valedictorian of her class.  She would have gone to college except my aunt got polio, so the money was not there.  She wound up marrying a loser.  Had some kids (we are catholic, this was the 50s - get over it).

I am second oldest, and when I was 4 (ages at this time, 7-4-3-1), the loser left.  Only to be seen once more in my life.  So my mother went to work.

Wait!  What about Child support!  Alimony?  Get real!  This was the 60s!  yea, the court ordered it!  My mother got 1 check!

I was the man of the house, so I assumed a lot of responsibilities at the tender age of 6.  I would get up, dress, make breakfast and my mother's lunch.  And then wake the others.  I did this for 2 years. Until.....

Eventually she met and fell in love with another man.  A Navy guy.  They married, and he shipped off to England for 2 years.  So while he was in England, I went back to doing what I had been doing.  My sister, an angel now, was a waste then.  Even she will tell you.

So yes, I grew up fast.

Then he came home.  He was still young.  Wanted some children of his own.  So my Sister was born.  My god-daughter! I have written about her before. It was a tough labor and my step father was a bad sleeper, so I had to wake him and tell him of his daughter.

Then he went to Nam.  My mother went back to work.  there were 5 of us then.  I was pre teens.  He came back, and decided to switch to the army.  The army screwed up big time! First they promised no BT, then they made him!  They they found the agreement! So he was re-promoted and assigned 3000 miles away.  We packed up and drove out.  Got there, and the new post decided there was a mistake!  No, the real post was 3000 miles away!  300 miles from where we had been!

We headed back.  And during that journey, someone ran out of BC pills. (we are Catholic - they are not illegal - learn or get over it)  And conceived twins.

They were born in Letterman.  Now there were 7 of us, and I was changing diapers on 3, before I was 15.

I love every one of my siblings.  Everyone is a god's gift to my mother!  And me.

And as things go, that man left.  Decided he wanted some fresh thang!  Not one burdened with 7 brats.

So she had to work again.  At least this time, the courts were more proactive, and this guy did send some money.  Not a lot.  His trophy bride required most of it.  But some.

So yes, I raised my siblings.  Not alone.  All of us took turns changing diapers, babysitting, and helping.  Kind of like they did 100 years ago before the noblesse oblige of the current aristocracy took over.

We did it, because we were needed.  We did it, and we learned.  Learned the value of a buck.  learned the value of hard work.  Learned the value of pitching in.

Now some have decided my mother was a bad person.  Why?  Because she could not provide for 7 children while not working. When she was a single parent.

Some say that.  But I see a strong woman.  Whose only fault is in bad choices in men.  I see a strong woman who I admire, and fight with tooth and nail!  I see a strong woman that the likes no longer exists in today's society.  For in all those years, when she was the sole bread winner, she never accepted a dime of government assistance or charity.  Not a damn dime (and neither did I in my darkest hour either).

I am sorry that those of you with plenty and have forgotten your dearth do not see that.  I am sorry that my mother is not up to your Utopian standards.  I am sorry you have forgotten what it is like to scratch and claw for the next day's meal.  When dinner is mac and cheese (I hate it!).

I am sorry my mother does not live up to your standards.  But I am sorry for you.  For I am not sorry for my mother and what she did.  And I am not sorry for any of my siblings.  No matter how many should have been aborted.  In my opinion, none of them should have, and I appreciate every one of them.

And I am not sorry for losing a childhood to help her.  I guess I am warped.  I really enjoyed my children's childhood!  Even bought my son a race car set he did not ask for just so I could play with him.

I am not sorry.  I am not ashamed.  I am proud of my mother, and who I am.

period.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Nov 16, 2005
Dr.Guy: Just a quick note and then I've got to run.

Nice try. maybe you can get that chip off your shoulder and ask, where is he? Or maybe I was in class all day?


I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I'm not angry with you. I think we have a misunderstanding here, and I would like for us to patch things up.

I understand that you are busy. I submitted the last reply after I had noticed you commenting on several other blogs. My apologies. My comment was not to be antagonistic. I was just curious as to whether you were going to address my comments or just wanted to drop it all.

Look, I offered an olive branch.


And I offered you one as well. As I said, I'm not angry.

You want a pound of flesh as well? Perhaps it is not what I said, but your own feelings that are causing you to continue to carry this vendetta.


I've seen you often making these type of sniping comments. It's really not necessary. You don't have to be rude to me. I'm not your enemy.

Sorry I am not at your beck and call.


Is that how you treat someone you respect? C'mon Dr.Guy. Let's not play like this. Let's be adults.
on Nov 16, 2005

I definitely felt accused by this article. The assertions you made were clearly leveled at the participants on Tova's thread, and I am one of those participants.

You are making a generalization here that is false. I do not take everything you write personally. I did take this personally, and I hope you can understand why I would.

Better re-read it.  I did not mention anyone, and indeed, I only had praise.  Please show me where I slammed you or Tova7?  What is your need to keep slamming me when I never even mentioned you in the article, and only responded to you in the comments?

If this had been written without the little digs at the participants on Tova's thread,

Show me where I mentioned her thread.  Please, show me.

I don't read everything you write as relating to me. I read this as relating to me because it is an expansion of our discussion on Tova's thread and makes accusations about that thread's participants (with particular reference to OUR conversation wherein you suggested your mom have an abortion).

No.  No one else saw that except you.  It is not about you!  Get over it!  This was not written for anything you said, this was not written for anything you implied.  It was written, plain and simple, because Tova7 (since withdrawn as we have cooled down) wondered about a woman who would have 7 children without a man to support them!

I do not know why you are going on like this.  Indeed, I cant see why you are even continuing this debate.  I have explained everything, and yet like a bull dog you wont let it go.  Even tho you have no case.

posted it here. If you don't feel it was hateful, fine. I did. You have claimed that you didn't level that "fat, dumb, and lazy" label at stay-at-home moms. OK. Let me tell you why I felt that you were applying that label to stay-at-home moms.

During the discussion you made a comment about ME (and I assume others who agreed with me) trying to dictate how many children people should have. Your comment referenced back to it:

For the THIRD and last time.  I am not a stay at home mother!  What part of that do you not understand?  We is not you!  We is America perhaps, or dads.  It can never be, when used by me, as A STAY AT HOME MOM!

apologize for my wrong assumption

Apology accepted.  Let's leave this alone for now.

When used correctly, birth control is VERY close to 100% effective

No it is not.  The best, the Pill is only 95%.  I know.  I have researched it.  I have 3 children due to the failure of BC (although I would not trade them for all the gold in China).  Better research that one better.
-----------------------

Let us leave it at this.  I responded to comments that Tonya said, and we have since cooled and come to agreement.  You responded to my comments to her and took it personally.  None of it ever was.

 

on Nov 16, 2005

Is that how you treat someone you respect? C'mon Dr.Guy. Let's not play like this. Let's be adults.

How about you give a guy enough time to actually type and respond?  Notice the times on the posts?  We were typing at the same time.

But I will appologize for my rudeness before.  It sounded exactly like someone else who is very demanding and loving of to play the Victim. and I just snapped.  For that I appologize.  I know you are not them, and I know we have had some misunderstandings here and on the other Blog.  I do appreciate the fact you were not going to "hurt and run".

I honor my mother.  But in so doing, I do not have to denigrate any other person.  That was and is my intent.

on Nov 16, 2005
Please show me where I slammed you or Tova7? What is your need to keep slamming me when I never even mentioned you in the article, and only responded to you in the comments?


I'm not slamming you. Please show me where I am slamming you. Dr.Guy, you're making this much bigger than it needs to be. And I feel you're being dishonest.

You referenced recent "how could they" blogs about working mothers. There is ONE in the forums right now. Tovas. You also referenced specific details from the discussion on that thread. If you want to pretend that this is not a spin off article, go right on ahead, but it's completely obvious that this blog is referencing Tova's.

Show me where I mentioned her thread. Please, show me.


It was implied. STRONGLY implied. What other recent article was there about working mothers?

This was not written for anything you said, this was not written for anything you implied.


I'll buy that partially. I'll admit that I read more into it than I should have. However, the abortion thing was a direct reference to our conversation on that thread. Me and you. Not you and Tova or dharma or anyone else.

I do not know why you are going on like this. Indeed, I cant see why you are even continuing this debate. I have explained everything, and yet like a bull dog you wont let it go. Even tho you have no case.


Why am I continuing this debate? Because I'd like to reach an understanding with you. I don't want this to sour our interactions with each other. This must be resolved to our mutual satisfaction before that can happen.

For the THIRD and last time. I am not a stay at home mother! What part of that do you not understand? We is not you! We is America perhaps, or dads. It can never be, when used by me, as A STAY AT HOME MOM!


Why is it that you can't pin down who the "we" was? It was a jab, meant to sting, and crafted just ambiguous enough that you could slide out of responsibility for it. It's a common tactic on JU.

I think perhaps we have grown fat, dumb and lazy to now start dictating how many children


It was a reply to MY comment about not having more children than you can care for. The "start dictating how many children" is a response to my comment. It's clear that the comment was meant for me. Even if you intended to say America, the context made it clear that I was included in that comment. The dads thing doesn't fly. It has nothing to do with the conversation and would make no sense in context.

There are two ways for you to get me off your case about the comment.

1) Straight up apologize for saying something mean in haste.
2) Claim you meant America and that you didn't mean anything personal by it.

There ya go. Two ways to fix it.

No it is not. The best, the Pill is only 95%. I know. I have researched it. I have 3 children due to the failure of BC (although I would not trade them for all the gold in China). Better research that one better.


Birth control failure is an exceedingly rare occurrence. Most birth control failures are the result of user error. Here's the government website for it. Notice the different between typical user rates and perfect use rates.

The birth control pill has a typical use pregnancy rate of 5% as you have stated. Typical use means it was not used correctly or used every time. Perfect use means the birth control was used as directed and with every sexual encounter (for birth control pills, this would mean pills are taken daily at the same time each day). Perfect use pregnancy rate is .1%. Big difference, huh?

Sure people get pregnant while on birth control. It's rare that it happens when it's used correctly, though. This is not an indictment of women who get pregnant while taking birth control. It is a caution, however. Proper use is VERY effective. Improper use can be risky.

You responded to my comments to her and took it personally. None of it ever was.


My apologies. I do feel that some of it was personal, but you are right, most of it was not meant for me. I apologize for making that leap. I don't want to fight with you. I want to get this straightened out. I'm asking for you to please, please work with me on this. If you have something to say to me, temper it with kindness. That's all I ask. I will work on doing the same for you.
on Nov 16, 2005
You know what? I've got some stuff on my mind right now, and I don't think I've behaved as well as I should have. I'm sorry. No "sorry but...you" or "sorry if I". Just sorry.

My sincerest apologies. That's all. I'm sorry for being hostile to you. I'm sorry that I made this a focus when it should not have been. And I'm sorry for defiling an otherwise sweet and personal thread.
on Nov 16, 2005
I agree with what others say...what a well-written and sweet tribute to a hard working mom.

I have five other siblings...mom was a single parent..I helped my mom raise the youngest one. She was criticized for having so many kids...we witnessed it as children how relatives would say things about her; it made us feel like dirt. We lived on government assistance for a while, too. I grew up embarassed of how we lived, but you know, looking back...I'm not embarassed at all. We lived under a bad situation, yes, but she tried to get us through it as best she could. I am thankful that she did her best, even if it wasn't ideal...and her kids have turned out to be some pretty decent people.
on Nov 17, 2005

Why am I continuing this debate? Because I'd like to reach an understanding with you. I don't want this to sour our interactions with each other. This must be resolved to our mutual satisfaction before that can happen.

You keep it up. I am done.  I am sorry you did not understand my tribute.  I am sorry you cant understand that not everyone is as you.  America is made up of great people from all over the spectrum.

I will leave it at that.

on Nov 17, 2005

I have five other siblings...mom was a single parent..I helped my mom raise the youngest one. She was criticized for having so many kids...we witnessed it as children how relatives would say things about her; it made us feel like dirt. We lived on government assistance for a while, too. I grew up embarassed of how we lived, but you know, looking back...I'm not embarassed at all. We lived under a bad situation, yes, but she tried to get us through it as best she could. I am thankful that she did her best, even if it wasn't ideal...and her kids have turned out to be some pretty decent people.

We have more in common than a birthday!  Our mothers were cut from the same cloth.  And while we may have thunk "we are deprived". in actual fact, we are in the luckiest.

I hope you realize that helping to raise your siblings was the greatest gift we could have gotten, even if we did not appreciate it at the time.  Hell!  My ex did not know nothing about babies!  But I sure did!  Sang to my first the whole first night to quiet her!  And I cant sing!  Learned that one from the twins!

on Nov 17, 2005
Dr.Guy:
You keep it up. I am done. I am sorry you did not understand my tribute. I am sorry you cant understand that not everyone is as you. America is made up of great people from all over the spectrum.


I have offered you a sincere apology. While you do not have to accept it, I am disappointed that you have chosen to reject it.

We are obviously both quite stubborn. I am willing to put my pride aside for you, Dr.Guy. And I'm not going to treat you poorly just because you have a negative opinion of me. I am disappointed, though.
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