Racism, Alive and well on the left side

And they call the Kettle black?

Published on January 21, 2005 By Dr Guy In Current Events

There was a diatribe written by a left member of JU decrying the fact that we had to suffer 4 more years of George W. Bush recently. They (the articles on the suffering they must endure for another 4 years) are becoming rather comical, and to be laughed at instead of railed at (they should be posted under Humor, not Politics). Strange how you did not see conservatives moaning and whining about '4 more years' of Clinton 8 years ago.

But this one was different, and as the poster said, it is their blog and they can say what they want. Yes, they can say what they want. However, they stepped over the edge of decency when they started comparing the Jews and Israel to Hitler and Nazi Germany. Sorry folks, that got me and I went off. I probably should have ignorred it, as being a racists and bigot is your right, whether it is right or wrong.

But I could not let it go, and indeed, I jumped all over them for the following part:

Do you think Israel's behaviour is acceptable? Keeping the Palestinians in the giant concentration camps of Gaza and the West Bank, killing them, torturing them, treating them like dogs?

Yes, you see I dont see any of that happening. The Palestinians are NOT in concentration camps (do you think the Jews at Dachau or Auschwitz could get bombs and blow up German Civilians?) and their treatment is at their OWN hands, not the Israelis! That the israelis are trying to protect their own citizenry (which are majority jews, but also have people of all faiths and even no faith), and they have to put up with these racists and bigots comparing them to Nazis!

Well,. you are right, it is yoru own blog and you can say what you want, and this is my blog and I can say what I want.

I think there is a comparison, although it's not one you want to hear. Israel is exclusively designed for Jews, and non-Jews are treated as second class citizens - fact.

WRONG! Arabs, Muslims, Christians and Jews share equally in a democratic nation. That it was founded by Jews for jews is irrelevant (just like America was founded by Christians for Christians). In actual FACT, it is a non-secular nation. No one is forced to profess faith in Judaic law or belief.

Please tell me how the Palestinian plight is self-inflicted? For being on the wrong bit of land when Israel was created? Yeah - I can see why it's all their fault. For resisting peacfully for years, and realising that it was getting them nowhere, so they took up arms against one of the best equipped militaries in the world?

Wrong again! Jordan occupied and kept the Palestinians down Until Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza during the 6 day war. At no time did the Palestinians ever try for self government. If you want to Blame someone, Blame Jordan for not trying to help them to state hood in all the years they occupied the West Bank. But no, you only see the evil Jews!

The jews established a country with Laws. The Palestinians have taken up arms since day one and have never tried to create a country or LAWS. Peacefully resisting? Yea, like the 11 atheletes in Munich! So doves they are! read your history! Dont even try to proclaim that! You pretend to be against violence? Go use yourself as a human shield on a tel Aviv Bus some day!

That's not an anti-semetic statement, it's how things work in Israel.

No, that is how you would like it to work so you could then justify your hatred of Israel.

Palestinians are forced to carry papers, to live in ghettos, and see their livelihood of growing olives destroyed - they cannot work, they cannot make money, they cannot afford to feed themselves. They are humilitated on a daily basis by soldiers and settlers. They live under curfew. They live with the constant threat of being killed, interned or being tortured. This was how the Holocaust started. I don't want to see another Holocaust.

Being forced to Carry Papers is the worst that is happening to them, and it is because they are at war with Israel, and instead of just wiping them out, Israel is trying to catch the terrorist. They are not starving, and they are working! You look at Palesstine and see Sudan. Your view is so far off of reality as to be pure fantasy! Ghettos? You have no conception of a Ghetto! They are free to roam about as they please! IN a Ghetto, you have no right to move anywhere! What, do you think they 'escape' at night to plant those bombs? How myopic are you?

Ah! And there is another word! Holocaust! Yes people! I thought we would never forget the holocaust! But alas we have, and now when a bunch of bomb throwing terrorist are killed (and yes there is collateral damage, there always is in war), that is anotehr Holocaust!

Policies that carry state terrorism to the point of mass killings for political ends and "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" (Article 2(c) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide), constitute genocide. I stand by my point. Don't call me a racist.

You would oh so want their to be 'mass killing' and yes there are. Of Israeli citizens. Israel has beene very measured in its response to its daily 9-11s. More measured than any other country could expect to be. Yes, there have been killings. In retaliation, and most of the time in a measured and intelligent way. Yet to you that is Genocide.

Excuse me, you also sated that Israel had a well armed and modern military. If that is the case, then you would also concede that if they wanted to, israel could have wiped out the Palestinians already as they just have sticks and stones and olive branches! What garbage!

The simple fact is that you are a racist bigot, and you proved it. Concentration Camps? Treated like Dogs? Ghettos? Holocaust? How many other nazi institutions do you want to conjure up? Just to feed your sick hatred of jews.

I dont hate you, I pity you. I pity the fact that you spout facts that are not facts but lies. All to justify your irrational hatred of a Race and Religion you dont understand, or a situation you have no comprehension of. I pity you because no amount of evidence, facts or eye witnesses will ever allow you to see the truth.

Wallow in your hatred. I guess like a pig in slop, you are happy that way.

Comments (Page 3)

shadesofgrey

on Jan 24, 2005

Do those checkpoints and roadblocks apply only to the Palestinians, and is there a different road for non-Palestinians to take? If so, why don't they take those ones?

Yes, they only apply to Palestinians, an d yes there are Israeli only roads in the West Bank and Gaza--the reason the Palestinians don't use them--they are not allowed.

messybuu

on Jan 24, 2005

Yes, they only apply to Palestinians, an d yes there are Israeli only roads in the West Bank and Gaza--the reason the Palestinians don't use them--they are not allowed.

Well, I'm surprised that the roadblocks are so advanced that they know when it's an Israeli, so they could just let them by without a fuss, or when it's a Palestinian, when they need to get checked at the roadblock. So, it's a bit discriminating, but I'll give the Israeli props for such advanced technology.

Wait, did you know that in the United States, there are barriers to Mexicans? Just try walking through the border nilly whilly as a Mexican. I'm sure that applies to just going into any country with just the clothes on your back. When you think about it, this world is concentration camp 2005.

shadesofgrey

on Jan 24, 2005

Ok, I get your sarcasm, but it's a little misplaced--you should read up on the situation before you make statements on it.

Israel roads are only for use by cars with Israeli tags (or plates). So yes, the technology is there--soldiers can tell by looking at a car if it is registered in Israel and has a right to be on the road. So, go ahead, give the Israelis props for discriminating and then, out of the other side of your mouth call someone else a racist for comparing the West Bank to a concentration camp--ah, the hypocrisy--how do you sleep at night?

Also, your analogy with Mexico does not work, the two situations are not remotely similar. The roadblocks in the Palestinian Territories are preventing movement within the territories. To use your example, it would be like the US setting up checkpoints in the middle of Mexico City and not allowing Mexicans to get from one side to the other. It's not about protecting soveriegn borders.

If you would like to have a serious discussion about this, I would be more than happy to engage in one...however, I suggest you would be better served using less sarcasm until you understand what you are talking about.

Dr Guy

on Jan 24, 2005

Israel roads are only for use by cars with Israeli tags (or plates). So yes, the technology is there--soldiers can tell by looking at a car if it is registered in Israel and has a right to be on the road. So, go ahead, give the Israelis props for discriminating and then, out of the other side of your mouth call someone else a racist for comparing the West Bank to a concentration camp--ah, the hypocrisy--how do you sleep at night?

It is so easy for the nuvo-Left to condemn a country that has been at war (undeclared) since its inception, and yet it has not resorted to genocide. name another that can claim that fact.

And read up on history, before you go throwing Nazi terms around that you apparently have no idea of what you are talking about, or are one of those trying to rewrite history. it will not be re-written here!

messybuu

on Jan 24, 2005

So, go ahead, give the Israelis props for discriminating and then, out of the other side of your mouth call someone else a racist for comparing the West Bank to a concentration camp--ah, the hypocrisy--how do you sleep at night?

I could sleep at night because comparing the West Bank to a concentration camp is so ridiculous. I'm sure most Jews that were in concentration camps would've preferred to suffer roadblocks and checkpoints than what they faced in the camps.
As for the roads, I was thinking they were roads people walk and not drive.

Also, your analogy with Mexico does not work, the two situations are not remotely similar. The roadblocks in the Palestinian Territories are preventing movement within the territories. To use your example, it would be like the US setting up checkpoints in the middle of Mexico City and not allowing Mexicans to get from one side to the other. It's not about protecting soveriegn borders.

So, Israel is building in territory it doesn't claim to itself, but building in areas that even it admits belongs to the Palestinians?

shadesofgrey

on Jan 24, 2005

If you think they are concentration camps, you are very sadly mistaken, and bordering on bigotted. You have no conception of a concentration camp do you? That their movement is restricted has a lot to do with suicide bombers, and not genocide or racism.

It is so easy for the nuvo-Left to condemn a country that has been at war (undeclared) since its inception, and yet it has not resorted to genocide. name another that can claim that fact.

And read up on history, before you go throwing Nazi terms around that you apparently have no idea of what you are talking about, or are one of those trying to rewrite history. it will not be re-written here!

Dr. Guy--I have never used Nazi terminology--please do put other bloggers words in my mouth. My response was to Juxtaposition for his "I'll give the Israeli's props" comment which was nothing short of crass. I am not rewritting history, but we clearly have a different interpretation of facts on the ground in the West Bank and Gaza. I am not a big fan of collective punishment and that is what is happening at the moment.

As for the comment to "read up on history"--I have, quite extensively. In fact I have my Master's degree in Ethnic Conflict and did my dissertation on Israel/Palestine and Northern Ireland. So, you can feel free to disagree with my take--but to call me uneducated on the matter is laughable.

Dr Guy

on Jan 24, 2005

As for the comment to "read up on history"--I have, quite extensively. In fact I have my Master's degree in Ethnic Conflict and did my dissertation on Israel/Palestine and Northern Ireland. So, you can feel free to disagree with my take--but to call me uneducated on the matter is laughable.

I did not call you uneducated. I did call into question your comparison of the palestinian plight to concentration camps. Since you are a student of History, as am I (Mine is the Third Reich, and WWII), I only questioned your use of that term.

If that is a mis-understanding, I appologize. But I have seen too many that are trying to white brush the holocaust out of our collective memories. Something as a student, I never dreamed possible, but now see as too close to reallity to ignore.

shadesofgrey

on Jan 24, 2005

I didn't make the concentration camp comparision--though I can understand why the comparison is made. Nazi Germany isn't the only place that concentration camps where used. By definition, a concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, or civilians of a critical war-zone. The term refers to situations where the people residing in the camp are selected based on broad criteria (ie. being Palestinian), rather than being judged on an individiual basis (which is the collective punishment comment I made above). I don't believe that Itgirl made reference to Nazi Germany until someone else did in the comments of her article--and with the definition I provided above, it would be hard to argue that the West Bank isnt' a huge concentration camp. The Holocaust doesn't have sole jurisdiction on term: concentration camps--yes theirs were the most brutal and horrific...but term is still valid in a context outside of Nazi Germany.

I am not rewriting the Holocaust--it was horrible and I sincerely hope that it never happens again. But I also think that the Rwandan genocide and the Armenian genocide were just as dispicable--even though they aren't widely acknowledged. My only desire is to stop future acts of genocide--and I know Itgirl feels the same.

What is happening in the Middle East at the moment is terrible--and both sides are at fault. But the Holocaust doesn't give the Israelis a "get out of jail free" card. Critics of the Israeli government aren't "Jew haters." Acknowledging that the IDF is brutal is not anti-semetic. I won't try to argue that Arafat was an ethical man, of that Hamas only has goals of peace and prosperity--because it's just not true. The Israel government has accomplished some really unsavoury things in the past and, for the most part, has remained unchecked by the international community. To pretend otherwise is to ignore reality.

And I believe that is the point--we shouldnt' turn a blind eye to the human rights violations committed by our allies--saudi arabia included. We need to start holding countries accountable for their actions.

messybuu

on Jan 24, 2005

y definition, a concentration camp is a large detention center created for political opponents, aliens, specific ethnic or religious groups, or civilians of a critical war-zone.

So, the Palestinians are stuck in the West Bank and are not allowed to leave? If so, then I'll agree that it's wrong for Israel to force the Palestinians to stay in a ghetto in the West Bank, but I honestly haven't seen anything that suggests they do that. What I see is Palestinians not being able to be as mobile in land Israeli still claims as Israelis, and that doesn't equal a concentration camp to me.

Dr Guy

on Jan 25, 2005

I started this thread with the thought that you are the terms you use. And when you use Nazi terms to describe the conditions of the palestinians, you are not only making veiled connections to the horrors of Nazis, but a conscious decision to equate the 2. I pointed out not 1, not 2, but 4 specific instances where instead of using the correct terms for the conditions of the West back, she chose to equate them to Nazi Germany.

For better or for worse the term concnetration camp has been equated with nazi Germany. And if you read your own definition, you will see that there are no concentration camps in palestine. Refugee camps, sure, but no concentration camps. They are living in those areas of their own accord, and are not being detained there.

That there have been other examples of genocide does not mitigate the horror of the holocaust, it just shows that man has not grown very much since then.

I am not trying to paint the Israelis as saints in all of this, but I think they are to be commended, not condemned, for their restraint in the face of daily 9-11s. I see no other example where a people, constantly sniped at and killed, with the capacity to commit genocide, have restrained in that venue. You mention the Armenians. Then you know the Turks committed that attrocity for a lot less than the Israelis have suffered.

You as a student of history should know that regardless of the origin of words or symbols, their meaning is changed when they become associated with some horrorific event in Human History. The Swastika was not a symbol of hate until the Nazis used it. It is actually an ancient symbol of a cross. But for evermore it will be associated with hate and genocide of the Nazis.

Rightwinger

on Jan 25, 2005

I've never understood the MidEast problems.
When I hear the phrase " refugee camp", I always think of tents and/or prefab buildings thrown up in haste to create temporary housing for a displaced people who will (hopefully) soon be settled in somewhere. Yet, when I see news pictures or film shot in the Palestinian "camps", I most often see houses and businesses; permanent buildings, not flimsy, thin-walled structures.
Am I wrong in this, or what? I mean, if there are store fronts and private houses in solid structures, I'd say that the "camps" have evolved into what we might call "cities". If this is the case, does it still seem like a "refugee" situation? If they'd been living in tents for 60 years, I could see why they're pissed off and blowing up buses and buildings full of innocent people, school children and the elderly. If not, what's the problem? The fact that the people across the Jordan are Jews and the Palestinians hate them? I always thought it was wrong to kill in the name of hate.

A few questions for anyone who can answer:

Why is it okay for the Palis to hate and kill the Jews indescriminately, but any action the other way, no matter how precise and surgical, is genocide?
Why have the Arab nations for years decried the bad teatment and "oppression" of the Palis by the Isrealis, but have done nothing, really, to absorb the "refugees" and alleviate their "suffering"?
It seems to me that the entire situation, at least from the other Arab nation's view, has more to do with keeping Isreal off guard and stirred up than it does with caring for an oppressed people. Am I looking at this incorrectly?

Help me out here, people.

Nice article, DrGuy

Dr Guy

on Jan 25, 2005

Am I looking at this incorrectly?

No, and your questions are very good.

Rightwinger

on Jan 25, 2005

Nah, there were plenty of righties bitching in '96. I mean, the whole Whitewater BS was Republican sour grapes.

---Myrrander

And Halliburton isn't Democrat "sour grapes"? It's okay for your guys to have improper business dealings, but no one else, correct?
Sorry... back to Guy's thread.

Dr Guy

on Jan 25, 2005

And Halliburton isn't Democrat "sour grapes"? It's okay for your guys to have improper business dealings, but no one else, correct?
Sorry... back to Guy's thread.

There is a leeeettttlle diffference. No one went to prison over the non-scandal of Haliburton. The only ones that did NOT go to jail over whitewater was the Clintons.

There is no there there in Haliburton. There was a lot there in Whitewater.

Rightwinger

on Jan 25, 2005

There is a leeeettttlle diffference. No one went to prison over the non-scandal of Haliburton. The only ones that did NOT go to jail over whitewater was the Clintons.

There is no there there in Haliburton. There was a lot there in Whitewater.

And no left-handed people shot themselves in the right side of the head, either. I understand the differences....just making a point, is all.
Improper business dealings are all around; if you're going to call a spade a spade, call it a spade. Nowhutamean?

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