Racism, Alive and well on the left side

And they call the Kettle black?

Published on January 21, 2005 By Dr Guy In Current Events

There was a diatribe written by a left member of JU decrying the fact that we had to suffer 4 more years of George W. Bush recently. They (the articles on the suffering they must endure for another 4 years) are becoming rather comical, and to be laughed at instead of railed at (they should be posted under Humor, not Politics). Strange how you did not see conservatives moaning and whining about '4 more years' of Clinton 8 years ago.

But this one was different, and as the poster said, it is their blog and they can say what they want. Yes, they can say what they want. However, they stepped over the edge of decency when they started comparing the Jews and Israel to Hitler and Nazi Germany. Sorry folks, that got me and I went off. I probably should have ignorred it, as being a racists and bigot is your right, whether it is right or wrong.

But I could not let it go, and indeed, I jumped all over them for the following part:

Do you think Israel's behaviour is acceptable? Keeping the Palestinians in the giant concentration camps of Gaza and the West Bank, killing them, torturing them, treating them like dogs?

Yes, you see I dont see any of that happening. The Palestinians are NOT in concentration camps (do you think the Jews at Dachau or Auschwitz could get bombs and blow up German Civilians?) and their treatment is at their OWN hands, not the Israelis! That the israelis are trying to protect their own citizenry (which are majority jews, but also have people of all faiths and even no faith), and they have to put up with these racists and bigots comparing them to Nazis!

Well,. you are right, it is yoru own blog and you can say what you want, and this is my blog and I can say what I want.

I think there is a comparison, although it's not one you want to hear. Israel is exclusively designed for Jews, and non-Jews are treated as second class citizens - fact.

WRONG! Arabs, Muslims, Christians and Jews share equally in a democratic nation. That it was founded by Jews for jews is irrelevant (just like America was founded by Christians for Christians). In actual FACT, it is a non-secular nation. No one is forced to profess faith in Judaic law or belief.

Please tell me how the Palestinian plight is self-inflicted? For being on the wrong bit of land when Israel was created? Yeah - I can see why it's all their fault. For resisting peacfully for years, and realising that it was getting them nowhere, so they took up arms against one of the best equipped militaries in the world?

Wrong again! Jordan occupied and kept the Palestinians down Until Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza during the 6 day war. At no time did the Palestinians ever try for self government. If you want to Blame someone, Blame Jordan for not trying to help them to state hood in all the years they occupied the West Bank. But no, you only see the evil Jews!

The jews established a country with Laws. The Palestinians have taken up arms since day one and have never tried to create a country or LAWS. Peacefully resisting? Yea, like the 11 atheletes in Munich! So doves they are! read your history! Dont even try to proclaim that! You pretend to be against violence? Go use yourself as a human shield on a tel Aviv Bus some day!

That's not an anti-semetic statement, it's how things work in Israel.

No, that is how you would like it to work so you could then justify your hatred of Israel.

Palestinians are forced to carry papers, to live in ghettos, and see their livelihood of growing olives destroyed - they cannot work, they cannot make money, they cannot afford to feed themselves. They are humilitated on a daily basis by soldiers and settlers. They live under curfew. They live with the constant threat of being killed, interned or being tortured. This was how the Holocaust started. I don't want to see another Holocaust.

Being forced to Carry Papers is the worst that is happening to them, and it is because they are at war with Israel, and instead of just wiping them out, Israel is trying to catch the terrorist. They are not starving, and they are working! You look at Palesstine and see Sudan. Your view is so far off of reality as to be pure fantasy! Ghettos? You have no conception of a Ghetto! They are free to roam about as they please! IN a Ghetto, you have no right to move anywhere! What, do you think they 'escape' at night to plant those bombs? How myopic are you?

Ah! And there is another word! Holocaust! Yes people! I thought we would never forget the holocaust! But alas we have, and now when a bunch of bomb throwing terrorist are killed (and yes there is collateral damage, there always is in war), that is anotehr Holocaust!

Policies that carry state terrorism to the point of mass killings for political ends and "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" (Article 2(c) of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide), constitute genocide. I stand by my point. Don't call me a racist.

You would oh so want their to be 'mass killing' and yes there are. Of Israeli citizens. Israel has beene very measured in its response to its daily 9-11s. More measured than any other country could expect to be. Yes, there have been killings. In retaliation, and most of the time in a measured and intelligent way. Yet to you that is Genocide.

Excuse me, you also sated that Israel had a well armed and modern military. If that is the case, then you would also concede that if they wanted to, israel could have wiped out the Palestinians already as they just have sticks and stones and olive branches! What garbage!

The simple fact is that you are a racist bigot, and you proved it. Concentration Camps? Treated like Dogs? Ghettos? Holocaust? How many other nazi institutions do you want to conjure up? Just to feed your sick hatred of jews.

I dont hate you, I pity you. I pity the fact that you spout facts that are not facts but lies. All to justify your irrational hatred of a Race and Religion you dont understand, or a situation you have no comprehension of. I pity you because no amount of evidence, facts or eye witnesses will ever allow you to see the truth.

Wallow in your hatred. I guess like a pig in slop, you are happy that way.

Comments (Page 5)

Rightwinger

on Jan 26, 2005

shadesofgrey---- Do you live in the area in question? I know Manopeace does. Just curious.

Manopeace

on Jan 26, 2005

But both races couldn't have gotten to the area at the same time. Which race was in the area ~~~first~~~? That's my question.

Bothe are the same race...!.... That's my answer.

Look man, there's no need to shout at me. I'm just asking questions.

Sorry!!!

Gideon MacLeish

on Jan 26, 2005

The problem here is that we've gotten bogged down in the idea of "ownership" of land. People have a right to live, and live peacefully, where they choose, within reason. When it happens to be the only place, the only culture they know, they have a right not to be displaced.

I don't know anything about the current Palestinian leader's ideology. But I DO know he does not share the same bloody, murderous history that was part of his predecessor's legacy. Arafat's death is one of the first real steps towards peace in the Middle East; it's my position that the resignation of Sharon could be the best next step.

Manopeace

on Jan 26, 2005

No truer words have been spoken!

Looks good so far Gid...Mr. Abbas seems sincere. As for Sharon resigning...from your keyboard to God's eyes!

shadesofgrey

on Jan 26, 2005

shadesofgrey---- Do you live in the area in question? I know Manopeace does. Just curious.

No, I don't.

Rightwinger

on Jan 26, 2005

---GM

I agree, but isn't really the bottom line here? Who has the right to have what? The Isrealis think they do, the Palestinians think they do. Isn't that the issue, true ownership? And I still say that for the Palestinians who've lived in the "camps" for 60 years, that is their home. It is, after all, the only one they've really known.

While I personally think a few early Islamic scribes may have been guilty of a little creative writing (for reasons that I could easily justify, but which are irrelevant to this thread; I will also not dismiss the possibility that a few early Hebrew scribes may have been guilty of same) to justify some of their actions, the fact remains that none of the current crop of Palestinian residents is guilty of that act (nor, for that matter, are the current crop of Israeli settlers). They are simply "guilty" of wanting to live in their homeland. The sooner the opposing sides understand this, the sooner they can set about preparing a real roadmap to peace.

I don't know anything about the current Palestinian leader's ideology. But I DO know he does not share the same bloody, murderous history that was part of his predecessor's legacy. Arafat's death is one of the first real steps towards peace in the Middle East; it's my position that the resignation of Sharon could be the best next step.

----GM

I agree here, as well.....with Arafat out of the picture at last, maybe things can finally move forward. And Sharon.....well......heh heh.....yeah, he needs to go, too.

Manopeace: We've been on the same side of a few discussions on here in the past; I respect you and your position.
You need to realize, however, that I, as I said, have NEVER understood what the big problem is in the MidEast. I get it a little better now, thanks to this discussion, but I still say that the Palestinian leadership has kept the whole bloody, violent mess stirred up (mainly in the effort to hold onto their own reins of power) for nothing, really. This is an issue that could have resolved itself over time, if they hadn't been so adamant about goading the unrest.
The Isrealis are just as bull-headed as the Palestinians (maybe moreso; the Jews have been persecuted throughout history, after all, and have learned, as a people, to deal with it) and the more they suffer the more bull-headed they get.

Maybe I'm just stupid, I don't know, or maybe I'm seeing a bottom line from my perspective that you're too close to see.
Either way, I've spent my life seeing pictures from Jerusalem of blown-up buses and buildings, rubble-strewn streets and bloodied corpses. I'm sick to death of it; and I'm quite certain that you're even moreso, having actually lived it. I hope to God that something breaks loose soon, and ends it.
I still hold the position, however, that Isreali "atrocities" are nothing compared to what the Palestinians regularly unleash. Since when does a missle launched from a chopper at a single house compare to the suicide car-bombing of an entire block? Arrests, detainments, beatings.....all are nothing in comparison to a single suicide bomber who gets onto a crowded city bus and pushes the plunger, killing dozens of innocent people, including children who have nothing, really, to do with the fight, other than just committing the crime of having been born in the wrong place.
Why can't they live together? Why can't they get along? I don't know if I'll ever understand it all.

Rightwinger

on Jan 26, 2005

I have been in large crowds at meetings talking to people about this and that. and have had someone say" that cheap ass fucking jew!}

---Moderateman

Modman: though I agree with your overall sentiments, to call someone a "jew" is not always intended as an horrible insult.
I had a boss once who was very tight-fisted and stingy. Hated giving raises and buying anything new. We called him a Jew (he wasn't really; he was a Lutheran, I believe), but in a joking manner, because he was so profit-oriented (he was already worth 5 mil, but would use a pencil until it was sharpened down to the nub so far that your fingertips touched the paper and your palm was over the eraser---I went out myself and bought a new pack of pens because the only thing we had to write with was the inside---the ink tube and tip---of a single pen, and he wouldn't buy anymore. That's stingy; I mean, a pack of ten pens only cost me a buck at the dollar store. He would wear shoes that literally had holes worn so far through the soles that you could see his socks.). Jews are, after all, (in)famous for their money-lender ways.

So please forgive us lowbrows for our unintendedly anti-PC comments and don't always be so thin-skinned. An anti-Semitic insult in jest is better than one made in anger or hatred. right?

shadesofgrey

on Jan 26, 2005

I still hold the position, however, that Isreali "atrocities" are nothing compared to what the Palestinians regularly unleash. Since when does a missle launched from a chopper at a single house compare to the suicide car-bombing of an entire block? Arrests, detainments, beatings.....all are nothing in comparison to a single suicide bomber who gets onto a crowded city bus and pushes the plunger, killing dozens of innocent people, including children who have nothing, really, to do with the fight, other than just committing the crime of having been born in the wrong place.
Why can't they live together? Why can't they get along? I don't know if I'll ever understand it all.

In my mind, this is the problem. You can't condemn terrorism on one hand and then support state sponsered acts of violence ("terorism") on the other. At Tel Aviv University, before his assinatin, Yitzhak Rabin apologized for the fact that Israel founded Hamas to destabilize the region so there could never be a true peace. Hamas is Israel's Frankenstein--they created a monster that they, and no one else, can control.

You appear to think that there are only innocent people on one side of the conflict. But that is not the truth--Palestinian children are not terrorist. I urge you to read this Link regarding the psychological damage caused to children by military occupation. Military occupation breeds violent dissenters. On the January 5th incursion into Gaza, six of the seven Palestinians killed where children. On December 12th, Israeli soldiers open fired on a primary school in southern Gaza injuring 8 students, all under the age of 7 years old. These children are not terrorists and we should not sit by and watch them get killed.

Often when we, in the US, hear of a suicide bomber, we are told that it comes during a period of relative calm--but that does not even begin to address the story. On Christmas day in 2003, a suicide bomber denotated himself in Tel Aviv. The media reported that this marked the end of the "calm.' But in the period between Christmas day and the previous suicide bomb (which occured in Haifa on October 4, 2003) 117 Palestinians were killed, hundreds injured and many more left homeless when their houses were bulldozed. Just two days before the suicide bomber attacked, Israel lead an incursion into Rafah refugee camp in Gaza with the assistance of 40 military vehicles and apache helicopters--but this was still considered "calm." Now, I am not saying that the suicide bombers are justified in their actions--violence is violence and it is atrocious. But the notion that violence only occurs on one side, or that state violence is legitimate simply because it is conducted on behalf of a recognized government is despictable.

Also, Sharon is well known for his terrorist past. Horrific acts committed in El-Bureig (Gaza) and Qibya (Jordan) predate Sharon's works in the IDF (and his record there isn't too clean either). It's hard for the Palestinians to trust a man who has personally tried to kill them in cold blood in the past.

At the political level, there are very few involved in this conflict who do not have blood on their hands.

The solution is not as easy as saying--Palestinians stay in the West Bank and Gaza and Israelis remain in Israel proper--there is still the issue of Jerusalem, in addition the notion of secure borders, self-determination and soveriegnty.

Rightwinger

on Jan 26, 2005

On the January 5th incursion into Gaza, six of the seven Palestinians killed where children. On December 12th, Israeli soldiers open fired on a primary school in southern Gaza injuring 8 students, all under the age of 7 years old. These children are not terrorists and we should not sit by and watch them get killed.

---shadesofgrey

Why were the Isrealis firing on the school?
From what I've always read and heard, Isreal's military responses are generally in retaliation for, or pre-emptive strikes to prevent, some acts committed by Palestinian terrorists.....the Isrealis at least attempt to make the effort to attack only the guilty parties. If children are killed, they are "collateral damage" (a sad term if ever there was one), and were simply in way when the attack began. Is this true or not?
If the Isrealis are directly targeting children in the name of terrorizing the Palestinians, as the Palestinians do by purposely bombing daycare centers and schools, then both sides are equally horrific and deserve each other. On the other hand, the practice of using schools and hospitals and such to store weapons and as hideouts is a well-known terrorist tactic.

It's not true that I think only one side is innocent.....and when one side is constantly attacked, it has the right to fight back. this applies to both sides, but I feel fairly certain that if the Palestinians weren't so adamant in their ways, Isreal would chill out, too, and things would get better.

On Christmas day in 2003, a suicide bomber denotated himself in Tel Aviv. The media reported that this marked the end of the "calm.' But in the period between Christmas day and the previous suicide bomb (which occured in Haifa on October 4, 2003) 117 Palestinians were killed, hundreds injured and many more left homeless when their houses were bulldozed. Just two days before the suicide bomber attacked, Israel lead an incursion into Rafah refugee camp in Gaza with the assistance of 40 military vehicles and apache helicopters--but this was still considered "calm."

----shadesofgrey

What precipitated the bulldozing and the incursion? There had to be something going on between those dates on the part of the Palestinians that was not made puiblic; I mean, I find it hard to believe that Isreal is simply going to march into an area for no reason whatsoever and tear shit down. This obviously only creates more reasons for violence on the part of the Palestinians; therefore, there has to be a reason for their doing it.

shadesofgrey

on Jan 26, 2005

What precipitated the bulldozing and the incursion? There had to be something going on between those dates on the part of the Palestinians that was not made puiblic; I mean, I find it hard to believe that Isreal is simply going to march into an area for no reason whatsoever and tear shit down. This obviously only creates more reasons for violence on the part of the Palestinians; therefore, there has to be a reason for their doing it.

The point is, the violence is cyclical. Every action by Israel is a result of an action by Palestinians and every action by Palestinians is a result of an action by Israelis. If you are asking who fired the first bullet ever in order to lay blame--you hare going to have a hard time finding an answer as the history is about as convoluted as it gets.

I don't consider children to be acceptable collateral damage--and I never will.

I appreciate your unrelenting support of Israel. However, I do not have the time or the energy to continue to provide examples of innocent Palestinians who have been dragged into the bloodshed if I am only to be met with "but I am sure that the Israelis were justified." Everything that I could tell you can be found in articles, books and journals elsewhere.

However, if you'd like, you are more than welcome to read my take on my experiences in the West Bank. Link

Manopeace

on Jan 26, 2005

Either way, I've spent my life seeing pictures from Jerusalem of blown-up buses and buildings, rubble-strewn streets and bloodied corpses. I'm sick to death of it; and I'm quite certain that you're even moreso, having actually lived it.

More than once I've woken up to the police searching my front yard for body part...victims of terrorist explosians. More than once I've witnessed Israel soldiers or police harassing Palestinians for the sole reason..."that they can".
On both sides...it is a minority of the people doing these horrible things. For the most part, both the Palestinians and Israelis want nothing more than this madness to stop and be able to get on with our lives.
Slowly, slowly we are getting to that stage. More trust is required, mor personal contact with both sides... we are getting there...and quite a few of us are doing our darndest to make sure that happens soon.

Rightwinger, I truly appreciate your honesty and concern. Thank you!

Dr Guy

on Jan 26, 2005

However, if you'd like, you are more than welcome to read my take on my experiences in the West Bank. Link

Shades, that was an excellant article. And I guess it does soften my stance somewhat. I think manopeace said it best. There are radicals on both sides, and until they can be reigned in, there will be no peace. I am not as negative about Sharon as Mano, but we will see with Abbas. It is a good start. Let's hope they can build 2 of the greatest nations in the Middle east.

Manopeace

on Jan 26, 2005

Let's hope they can build 2 of the greatest nations in the Middle east.

AMEN

Fot this you get a whole matzoh cracker!

Dr Guy

on Jan 26, 2005

Fot this you get a whole matzoh cracker!

That is better than the restriction you put me on in your last admonition!

Manopeace

on Jan 26, 2005

your last admonition!

sheesh...you make me sound like a ogre...

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