Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on December 23, 2005 By Dr Guy In Home & Family

I have been reading Tova's articles, and they really move me!  Such a childhood, and to see what became of all that?  A wonderful person.

But recently, someone (I forget now, so please, I did tell you I was going to write on this, speak up) recently talked about a bad childhood where the parents stayed together.  At least for awhile.

My Childhood was nowhere near as bad as Tova7's  I had a loving, if angry mother.  And no father (faithful readers will remember that part).  My Parents divorced when I was 4.  He was an alchy, and altho a sister later re-established contact with him, he never changed.  he died 4 years ago.  So in all seriousness, I never really knew him.  I kind of regret that, but for a father to abandon his son is a hurt that is not easily healed, and one I will not make.

I do not regret the separation.  Indeed, I guess things (while hard) were for the best.  And then in my life, I entered into a one way relationship, that did begat 4 children, but never had love from the other side, and after 20 years, I did divorce.  My youngest was by 7.  He is with me now, as my other son will be joining us soon.

I know from a kids perspective, that they want "mama and dad" to always be together and be a family.  For the normal ones.  But what about the broken families?  Where it is apparent that the love is gone.  Do they still?  From my perspective, no, I am glad my parents divorced.  But I hear so many stories of others that bear a grudge with one or both of their parents for separating.  Indeed, one of my daughters bears that scar.  She will probably never know of the lack of love, and I pray each night that she will never be her mother. (as my ex was so much like her mother).

But what do others of 'broken' families feel?  And for the record, I don't think the families are broken, just that the marriage is, but if there was love, it created great things.  And where there was never any, just a fool in love that is dumb as a stump.

Families are not broken as long as there is love for the children.  Marriages are broken for many reasons, or, like mine, should never have occurred.

In any event, staying together for the sake of the family is NOT the answer.  Even tho in my case, 1 and 1 is a split decision.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Dec 23, 2005
My first reaction to this is: Why stay in a marriage if you are miserable? Why stay in if you feel no love for the other person anymore? Yes, I am all for trying to work out differences and trying to save a relationship. But what happens after you have tried everything you can to make a marriage work and it doesn't? To me, staying in it for the sake of the kids when you are unhappy...well, I don't see how that is going to make things better. Kids aren't dumb...don't you think they'd eventually see that Mommy and Daddy aren't happy? Don't smile at each other? Fight constantly?

Maybe my opinion comes from seeing a few of these types of marriages. I know two couples who have stayed together for the sake of the kids...both of these couples have a string of infidelities between them, and don't respect each other very much. What kind of marriage is that to be in?

I know it would be hard for children to see their mom and dad separate...but in the long run is it better for them to have both their parents, EVEN IF their parents are unhappy together? I try to put myself in this situation...I had no father growing up, either....I wonder once in awhile what it would have been like to have had a dad. But you know, my father did NOT want to be with my mom...what kind of relationship would that have been if they had stayed together for the sake of the kids? I'm thinking it probably wouldn't have been a very good one.
on Dec 23, 2005
Well thanks for the compliments!

I think if you look at it from a child's perspective it is pretty clear. Kids love their parents, even when their parents suck. You can go into the reasons why they love them, but for this discussion I think it is fair to say kids (young kids especially) love their parents.

Why do kids want their miserable together parents to stay together? Because kids don't understand that some things can't be fixed or forgiven. They don't have the ability to believe that the parents who so easily forgive them when they do something "bad" can't just forgive each other and move on.

From a kids logic it makes perfect sense. The two people they love most in the world should be able to forgive each other as easily as they forgive their children. Plus, most kids don't carry grudges. Divorce takes a bit of that, and most kids can't wrap their minds around being mad at someone for more than a day or two.

So yes, kids think their parents should be together for THEIR sake.

You can say as an adult you are glad your parents divorced. As a child I bet you didn't feel that way. You are wiser now and can see the "bigger" picture.

I remember when I first heard the word divorce. That was something that happened to the neighbors, not me. Even as crazy as my parents acted I never believed for one minute it would end in divorce. Even when my mom left, in my kid mind, I thought my dad should just carry on until she came back. And if she didn't, well that was fine too. But they should stay married for sure.

So I totally get why kids want their parents together.

As an adult, married 19 years to the same man, with two kids. Wow, I can think of a million reasons to stay together. There are very very few things that would make raising my boys without their dad an option. And I am talking molestation or something of that nature.

When I was younger I was one of those women who snapped her fingers making a "z" in the air and saying, "If my husband ever cheats I am outta here!"

Then I got a clue.

Has he cheated? No, not that I know of. Would he pay if he did? OF COURSE (Buwhahaha).... But just between you me and a few other hundred readers, I wouldn't leave him for it (but he doesn't need to know that so shush!). And a big part of that decision would involve my kids.

I am a realist. I have a great husband and loving father to my kids. He is not perfect, but either am I. Short of the things I mentioned above, I would fight FOR my marriage. As I have in the "rough" spots so far. (Some were more like years than spots but I digress.)

As for you and your divorce. I can't wrap my mind around a loveless marriage from the beginning. I understand marriages where the love gets lost, or whatever, but not having it from the get go? How in the world did she fool you?

I don't judge people who get divorced. I wasn't part of their marriage so I can't comment on the end of it. And I've never met anyone who thought divorce was fun or easy...no matter how necessary....

I do have a problem with people saying, "I just don't love him anymore." Bah! Love is an emotion that comes and goes. I believe your word is more important than any emotion you may or may not be feeling that day. And if you have kids I believe you should not get divorced over something as paltry as an "emotion." That is selfish.

Love is a wonderful place to start, but it doesn't always carry you through. If love were enough, than there really wouldn't be any divorces because I don't know anyone who gets married saying, "MAN I HATE THIS MAN/WOMAN!" It usually starts in "love" then moves up from there. But that's my experience.

on Dec 23, 2005
But what happens after you have tried everything you can to make a marriage work and it doesn't? To me, staying in it for the sake of the kids when you are unhappy...well, I don't see how that is going to make things better.


Better for who though? Just wondering because if a divorce means say, the woman gets primary custody and ALSO drops a socieconomic level which is statistically how it happens in this country, then who is suffering? The kids are now without dad and are learning to live with less. You (generic you, not you you) are free and "happy" but I don't think the kids will really give a crap about that."

I know couples who are horrible together, constant "hostile humor" but they think they're great together. Their kids see the fighting all the time. Should they get divorced just so their kids won't see it?

Just playing devil's advocate.
on Dec 23, 2005

But you know, my father did NOT want to be with my mom

Interesting and insightful.  Mom, and father.  Same as me.  But for my kids, I will be there, and always support them, so as they grow (and I just got a BIG hug from my son), I will always be a dad!

Thank you Little sis!  Part of this was shared experiences between us, although a generation separates us

on Dec 23, 2005

You can say as an adult you are glad your parents divorced.

WOW!  You should have written your own blog! (you have many and I thank you for allowing us to read them).  But even as a child, ok, male, I hated the fact that he never had contact with me.  I know I cannot speak for girls, but that was the killer.  So even as a child, I was glad.

Many have told me that once my girls mature, and see the reality, that they will understand.  I do hope so.  For while my mother divorced her next husband, father to 2 sisters and a brother, none of them want anything to do with him.  (I hate the term half) They have matured, but then their father never did.  And in actual fact, I mourn for their loss than mine.  The opposite of love is not hate.  It is indifference.  And I long ago stopped hating my father (note the term).  But I still love my siblings and cant stop hurting for them.  Weird?  yea, probably.

on Dec 23, 2005

Just playing devil's advocate.

The kids are now without dad and are learning to live with less. You (generic you, not you you) are free and "happy" but I don't think the kids will really give a crap about that."

That you are.  But you are also bringing up valid points.  I once idolized Ralph Sampson.  Until he neglected his children!  no more!

I never did, and indeed during the 2 years of the divorce, with no court order or compulsion, I did not forsake my children!  The marriage may have been one way (and that is for another blog), but the love of my children and my undying support for them will never be.

on Dec 23, 2005
I hated the fact that he never had contact with me


That's because you LOVED him....at least then you did. His indifference hurt you right? I mean as a kid. I totally understand not wanting to know somone once you are an adult, who couldn't be bothered to know you as a kid. Sounds like you are better off without him, really.

Many have told me that once my girls mature, and see the reality, that they will understand


I think this as well. You didn't abandon them. See, as you know from experience, abandonment is the one obstacle that most people can never get over. They may get past it, but they never get over it.

So kids whose parents divorce can do well so long as both parents stay involved. However, how many times do you see this NOT happen after divorce? You hear the same tired old excuses, "I HAD to take that job 3000 miles away." OR "My new family is so demanding." or "Your mom wouldn't let me see you."

Yeah right. Once kids grow up, they know that's all a crock. I know it. I know nothing and no one short of JAIL would keep me from my kids and JAIL would still be abandonment.

IMHO, once abandonment takes place that is really it for the relationship. Whether the abandonment is intentional or situational doesn't seem to really make a difference.

That's my two cents....ok maybe a buck twenty-five!
on Dec 23, 2005
I never did, and indeed during the 2 years of the divorce, with no court order or compulsion, I did not forsake my children! The marriage may have been one way (and that is for another blog), but the love of my children and my undying support for them will never be.


AND that is exactly why your girls will return to you.

Don't sweat it. They want too no matter what they say. Kids love their parents, that's just how it works. Even kids who are given up for adoption still often feel "connected" to the bio parents and want to make a "connection." It's the way we're wired.

They'll come back. You'll see!
on Dec 23, 2005
Wow. Heavy stuff.

I've been married three times.

My first marriage lasted less than a year. We were both very young. He was a "bad boy", and initially I think I dated him because I was in a state of rebellion and wanted to spite my parents. I was drawn to the dark, broody, dangerous types... or maybe they were drawn to me. I've never quite figured that out. Anyway... we dated, got pregnant, and... as a Pastor's kid, I assumed that my only option was marriage. How I wish I had been mature enough to think that through more. We married and after 8 months of alcohol and drug abuse, which in turn lent itself to physical and verbal abuse, I left him. I agonized over the effect this breakup would have on my daughter. I vividly remember watching episodes of The Cosby Show and crying because I felt I was depriving her of a happy "normal" family. On the other hand, I couldn't live with the abuse. Had I been a bit more mature, I'd have realized that removing her from the abusive situation was actually in HER best interests as well... not just my own. Still, I felt so guilty - for her sake. Today my ex and I rarely talk, although my current husband and I go out to dinner with my ex-parents-in-law several times each year. Go figure. *s*

My second marriage was rushed into. I was at a point in my life that I just wanted to settle down and be done with the whole dating scene. I met a man who pretended to be several things he wasn't (pretended he'd been disabled from the police force (but was fired for insubordination), pretended he had cancer (complete lie), pretended to share my faith (and later told me I was foolish for believing a lie), and for a while, things were fine. We married and had a baby girl, but by the time she arrived I realized that he had lied about many things, and that although he wasn't an alcoholic like the first, he had severe control issues that were destroying our marriage. He too became increasingly abusive. On our second anniversary I found myself at a rest area, trying to determine if he had cracked my ribs, and not knowing whether to head for the ER and risk his further wrath or just suck it up and go home. I begged him to seek counseling with me, but he blatantly refused, telling me that he didn't WANT the marriage to work. He told me that the only reason he stayed was that I put a roof over his head. Nice. I sought counseling on my own, hoping to salvage the marriage, but the counselor told me it wasn't going going to work. He told me that if I stayed, my girls would end up either like him (control freaks) or like me (a door mat). He said I needed to get out for their sake. I finally did throw him out, and had a restraining order for a year. We have a strained, yet civil relationship now. I know that leaving was in the best interests of my children.

One of my first acts of independence was to call up an old friend that my husband had refused to let me see. Joel was a nice guy, but no one I envisioned anything romantic with. He just wasn't my type. My ex was convinced that this guy had a thing for me, though (he didn't) and told me I could not see him... ever. Once I threw the ex out, I called Joel and we got together. We hung out for about a year -- he, the girls and I -- and he became my best friend. We weren't romantically involved... but just buddies. Eventually he went on a trip (NAVY reunion, I think) and I realized while he was gone how much I had grown to care for him. It hit me all of a sudden that I COULD see myself with him. Talk about a shocker... he was totally opposite of every man I had ever dated before... so NOT what I had always looked for... yet there it was. Over the next two years we "dated" and eventually he proposed and we were married. We've been married for nearly seven years and he is STILL my best friend. God is good.

Wow... this ended up being very long winded. My point is that I do NOT think staying together for the sake of the children is always the best policy. If a marriage can be worked out -- it should be -- at all costs. But to subject children to dangerous situations, just because you are adamant that divorce is not an option... that's just wrong. I believe that God hates divorce, and that marriage is meant to be forever. One man, one woman, for life. That said, I also allow that there are certain circumstances where that is just not possible.

I do know this: every relationship I have been in has taught me something. God has used each one of them to mold me into the person He wants me to be. I wouldn't be who I am today without having been through the experiences I have been though... so I don't regret any of it. I wouldn't give up any of my children. I wouldn't trade my challenging past for a rosy one. I'm content to live in the here and now, taking the lessons learned in the past and moving on.

((((((((((((((((((Doc)))))))))))))))))))))) I know you consider yourself less than perfect as a father. I know you regret choices made, and that you feel inadequate... but there are some things we have no control over. The best we can do is to learn from the past and face the future a bit wiser. You've done that... and I think your current wife, AND your children, are blessed to have you.

Children of divorce CAN survive. Many well-adjusted, productive kids have parents that are divorced. What’s the difference? The difference is that both parents stick around and actively parent their children. It's a shame when one parent is shut out, and not allowed to fulfill their responsibilities. Parents who work hard for their children—whether they’re together or not—end up raising kids who make it in life. They have children who are well adjusted and capable of trusting people and forming good relationships. Your heart for your children shines through all the time, doc. I'm glad that for the most part, they see that too.
on Dec 23, 2005

I think this as well. You didn't abandon them. See, as you know from experience, abandonment is the one obstacle that most people can never get over. They may get past it, but they never get over it.

Actually, you do.  As a child, perhaps you are right.  But I only knew about his death because my Aunt told me.  And I felt nothing.  I guess I am really bad.

on Dec 23, 2005

AND that is exactly why your girls will return to you.

Don't sweat it. They want too no matter what they say. Kids love their parents, that's just how it works. Even kids who are given up for adoption still often feel "connected" to the bio parents and want to make a "connection." It's the way we're wired.

They'll come back. You'll see!

Thank you for a great Christmas wish!  I am not sure I will go for it just yet.

on Dec 23, 2005
I do NOT think staying together for the sake of the children is always the best policy. If a marriage can be worked out -- it should be -- at all costs. But to subject children to dangerous situations, just because you are adamant that divorce is not an option... that's just wrong. I believe that God hates divorce, and that marriage is meant to be forever. One man, one woman, for life. That said, I also allow that there are certain circumstances where that is just not possible.


Yup, what she said. Just said it better and shorter!
on Dec 23, 2005

Reply By: HC...

WOW!  2 additional blogs on mine!

I never knew.  And I will always hope!  I can see where your daughters get their spirit.  I am sorry you had such a tough road to hoe.    Thank you for sharing and thank you for your support! But this was about the staying together.  And I see your vote loud and clear!

Thank you dear lady, for the affirmation and the sharing.

on Dec 23, 2005

Yup, what she said. Just said it better and shorter!

You BOTH said it very well.  And thank you both.  Sincerely.  My life has not been bad.  But "Voices carry" if you remember that tune.

on Dec 23, 2005
I can see where your daughters get their spirit.

Thanks. They're wonderful children, as is the 5-year-old son I forgot to mention. *s*


I am sorry you had such a tough road to hoe.

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't be. I'm not. I've grown a lot through my experiences, as I'm sure you have too.

But I only knew about his death because my Aunt told me. And I felt nothing. I guess I am really bad.

Nope. How can you mourn for someone you never knew? That doesn't make you bad. It makes you human.







Thank you dear lady, for the affirmation and the sharing.

You're very welcome
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