Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
A Promise is a Promise
Published on December 2, 2005 By Dr Guy In Current Events

2 students in Orange Co. California are facing expulsion for taking a teacher at her word.  The teacher assigned a project where the students were to keep a journal with the understanding that no one would read it   (except her for grading).  Instead the teacher read somethings and decided to let others read them as well.  And the students were suspended and are awaiting an expulsion hearing.

Why?  Well, in their journals, they talked about torturing and killing a teacher.  From the little snippets that the article revealed, it appears that they were just being stupid adolescents, and trying to one up each other on what they thought was a funny scenario.  All with the expectation of the journal not being read per the promise of the teacher.  But she broke her promise.

And in the zero tolerance of the post Columbine mentality of schools, these students are being punished not for anything they did (or you could say for doing what hey were told, but I digress), but for believing the word of an adult.

In this stupidity that passes for education today, they ignatzes don't even realize the damage they have done, not only to these 2 students, but to their own reputations.  No longer can any student trust the word of a teacher.  All teachers are suspect, and should be regarded as only telling the truth, when it suits them, and not when it is the right thing to do.  And that is the lesson the teachers are not only teaching these 2 students, but the entire student body.  Wow!  What Nobel prize winning candidates!

When are these mental midgets going to learn that actions speak louder than words?  And when you leave reason at the school door, the only thing you are teaching the students is to never trust people in authority.  For they will always let you down?  It requires no intelligence to enforce a zero tolerance policy where a spork becomes an expulsion offense.  And the trust that the teachers are supposed to be trying to create with their student is gone. 

I am glad most of my children are out of school.  I pray that the remaining 2 will not be saddled with mental midgets in their last few years. But my grandchildren will have to spend a school career with a bunch of mind numbed robots that cant think for themselves and that my grandchildren can never trust for anything.  Not even legitimate school work.

It is a sad day in education, not because of 2 over hormonal jocks who may have to seek a new school, but for the millions of school children that just learned a valuable lesson.  Never trust a teacher.  Hire a lawyer and get them to sign an unbreakable contract.

The Legal professions stock just doubled, thanks to idiots in education.


Comments (Page 6)
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on Dec 04, 2005

What I find amusing is that the same people who tend to support zero-tolerance policies are the first ones to decry the Patriot act.

Zero tolerance polices are more a symptom of a larger issue.  Today's public school teachers, by and large, simply aren't very intelligent compared to the general population anymore.  As a result, to substitute for intelligence, they implement policies because intellectuals no longer tend to become public school teachers.

A couple generations ago, when American society was more blue-collar and less emphasis was placed on education, teachers were a shining light amongst their peers.  Unfortunately, since the general population didn't value education, teachers were poorly paid.  But the typical teacher was more educated and more thoughtful than the typical parent.

Today, roles have reversed.  Increasingly, parents are far more educated than so-called "educators" who increasingly are little more than paid babysitters. This is particularly true of elementary education teachers who seem to generally (though not all, there are outstanding teachers everywhere) be below average in intelligence.  Unfortunately, the inertia of the past in which teachers were more educated than the general popultion has lingered on and today's teachers mistakenly believe that they know more about "things" than the parents which is rarely the case.

Zero-tolerance polices are an outcry of this because at some level, administrators and teachers are no longer capable of really thinking about things because they lack the intellectual capacity to think on their feet. It is much easier to enforce blanket policies than to have to deal with situations individually.  The charge that they're protecting themselves from lawsuit is absurd as zero-tolerance policies are likely to generate as many lawsuits as they prevent (if not more). 

Worse, it's likely to create more expensive lawsuits.  My own son was nearly suspended for drawing a crayon picture (he was just barely 7 years old) of a wrecking ball wrecking the school (replaying a scene from Fairly Odd Parents -- a cartoon). What does the district think would happen if schools started expelling children for this kind of thing? Do they think the parents would sit idly by?

As if school districts are working overtime to demonstrate that they are no longer bastions of thought and intellectualism, you regularly see teachers and administrators complaining about the rise of charter schools and home schools -- as if most parents want to have to pay taxes to public schools and then turn around and spend their time teaching them.  Home schools and the like are the natural result of the decline of intellectual vigor of public schools.  Zero-tolerance policies are the poster child of that decline.

on Dec 04, 2005
Zero-tolerance policies are the poster child of that decline.


more accurately, william bennett--who originated the concept and proclaimed the first 'zero tolerance' policy--is the poster child for the concerted effort to sabotage public education that began during the reagan administration and has become official national policy under the 'great educator' currently occupying the whitehouse.

i doubt most american parents are 'as educated' as credentialed teachers but you can bet their children won't be...thanks to the idiocy of nclb. on the other hand, kids who are currently spending at least a third of their annual classroom time learning only those things needed to do well on nclb-imposed tests may be equally qualified as someone with a degree when it comes to passing that particular skill set along to the next generation.

bennett is/was amazingly consistently authoritarian whether he was wearing his drug czar ushanka or his sec of ed mortarboard.

What I find amusing is that the same people who tend to support zero-tolerance policies are the first ones to decry the Patriot act.


not true at all. john 'patriot act' ashcroft is the very model of a modern zero tolerator...as are his colleagues and bosses.
on Dec 04, 2005

i doubt most american parents are 'as educated' as credentialed teachers

Speak for yourself I guess.  Do you have children Kingbee? Or are you simply trying to reinforce the left-wing dogma of "Those damn ignorant breeders." that we see so often (and often seems to shine through on your blogs).  In case you've beein a cave, the US over the past generation has been migrating from an industrial economy to an information economy.  We're no longer a country of assembly line workers.  A don't have the stat handy but I would go as far as to say that most American parents today have college degrees, something that wasn't the case a century ago.

William Bennett did not send my 7 year old son to the office for drawing a picture that they didn't approve of.  But feel free to provide a link to any statement or policy that Bennett was involved on that could somehow be construed as supporting expelling small children because they draw stuff blowing each other up.

not true at all. john 'patriot act' ashcroft is the very model of a modern zero tolerator...as are his colleagues and bosses.

.  Oh yea, can you point to any people you know, any at all, that have been affected by the patriot act? 

on Dec 04, 2005
I haven't taken the time to read ALL of the replies yet so please forgive me for repeating anything already said, but I may be able to sympathize with both sides more than anyone because of where I am in life right now... I'm a freshman in college and I'm studying to be a doctor of mathematics (long term goal). I'll also be studying teaching.

With that said I believe it's pretty safe for me to say that nobody was exactly "wrong" in this entire situation. Just because there was a conflict there doesn't have to be a right and a wrong. I believe that's a popular essay topic in high school (the one's where you just give your opinion). You can't be told that you're wrong when asked for your opinion. It IS your opinion.

The students were writting what they most likely thought harmless because they were told that it was safe. The teacher, on the other hand, must report anything suspicious to the powers that be.

The students weren't exactly being smart in their choice of words but should be protected from being punished for it. They were told only the teacher would read it and as students they have been taught that the teacher is always right (which is b.s.). When the teacher told them only he/she would read the paper they must have thought that righting something like that wouldn't be a big deal. Seeing as how they each wrote something different should show that they were just messing around.

On the other hand, the teacher should have told someone... their parents may have been the best choice but telling someone in authority to him/her is just as legit.

The way I see it people find it to be offensive on one side or the other because it's not an ideal set of circumstances. That does NOT mean it's ok to say that one or the other is wrong. A promise may be broken to protect others.

Even before all these recent shootings I may have questioned their actions.

My wise and amazing mother always likes to point out that "people in authority aren't always looking out for your best interest. it's your responsibility to make them". Basically it means that she was looking out for her and that those students should have said something to her authorities...

Just my humble opinion but I just think everyone was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Capt. over and out!
on Dec 04, 2005
Today's public school teachers, by and large, simply aren't very intelligent compared to the general population anymore.


That is the rudest drivel I've ever read. Have you administered IQ tests to public school teachers and compared them with those of the "general public". It's bullshit, Brad. It's a blanket bullshit statement. If you don't like public schools, then yank your kids, but DON'T presume to know how intelligent we are or are not.
on Dec 04, 2005

That is the rudest drivel I've ever read. Have you administered IQ tests to public school teachers and compared them with those of the "general public". It's bullshit, Brad. It's a blanket bullshit statement. If you don't like public schools, then yank your kids, but DON'T presume to know how intelligent we are or are not.

As an exmaple we have the unintended irony of someone complaining how it's wrong to generalize one way but being blissfully unaware that they are generalizing the other way.  That is, I shouldn't presume to know how intelligent the typical elementary ed teacher is but it's perfectly reasonable for elementary ed teachers to presume the opposite.

In the name of a semblance of diplomacy, the typical American is far more educated today than they were 50 years ago. By contrast, the typical teacher has not had to increase their education level to nearly the same extent.  Moreover, there are far more career opportunities in our economy for people who like to "think" than there were 50 years ago so the teaching profession has had to increasingly compete for intelligent people more and more.  Which has reached the point where in college, the least intelligent people seemed to be going into "special ed" or elementary ed.

To me, it's not surprising to see blanket unthinking policies such as "zero tolerance" be adopted wholesale. It takes the pesky task of thinking or individualizing students and replacing it with enforcing policy.

Why should I yank my kids out? It does the job of watching my kids and teaching them basic skills.  I have very low expectations from public schools. As long as they distribute out the coursework then I'm basically okay with it. Anything particularly important I fully expect them to learn from home. And the system is redundant enough (12 years of it) that it only takes a few particularly good teachers (such as my son's third grade teacher who is outstanding) to make up for the NEA robots.

BTW, I would love to see a thorough study on what the average IQ of an American elementary school teacher. However, if you read what I wrote, or at least comprehended it, you would realize that I wasn't making a "blanket statement". Blanket would be saying ALL teachers are less intelligent. I said "by and large" as it "Generally speaking". And in the context of what I wrote I believe is indisputable. Today's parents, on average, are far more educated and intelligent than they were a couple generations ago. By contrast, teachers (at best) have not progressed at nearly the same rate. Therefore, teachers have lost much, if not all, of their relative educational/intelligent edge they may have once had over parents. 

on Dec 04, 2005
typical teacher has not had to increase their education level to nearly the same extent


I disagree. It wasn't so long ago that teacher education consisted of apprenticing with the one-room schoolhouse teacher for a few weeks. Then a teaching certificate progressed to a one-year post-secondary education (meaning post-8th grade), then it became a two-year certificate, and now it is a four year degree. The federal government also states that if you want to be "highly qualified" you have to pass two standardized tests. The majority of teachers also go on to complete at least master's degrees. If they choose not to pursue their master's degree, most states mandate that teachers take a certain number of credits of continuing education. That means graduate level college courses, extra certifications, seminars to stay current with recent research on the brain and teaching pedagogy, mental health and first aid trainings, etc.

I shouldn't presume to know how intelligent the typical elementary ed teacher is but it's perfectly reasonable for elementary ed teachers to presume the opposite.


No, Brad. I haven't made ANY assumptions about anyone's intelligence (and neither has any other educator that's been involved in related discussions). I suspect that JoeUsers are probably on the right side of the bell curve as far as intelligence goes, but I could very well be mistaken. I've never said that computer geeks were morons, but you have insinuated that very thing because I chose to become a teacher. I might not be smart the way you are, in fact I know I'm not. But I'm not an ignoramus, either. Didn't you yourself write an article about being a "jack of all trades" versus being a master of one? That's what elementary teachers are. We don't know everything about one thing, we know some about a lot. I don't presume to march into this classroom and know everything in the first week of being a teacher. ! I'd be a fool to think that. To sign a teaching contract is to sign up for a lifetime of learning. Elementary, high school, or college teaching.
on Dec 04, 2005
Yes, she did promise confidentiality to these students, and yes, she did break a promise... but this was shocking and disturbing content she read... how could ANY teacher turn a cheek to that?

You know what's really sad...she'd probably be dragged through the mud as well if she DIDN'T say anything...she'd be criticized for not reporting a possible threat.


Well, said, Rose. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think some of this has to do with gender, too. If it had been a male teacher in question there probably wouldn't be the hoopla.
on Dec 04, 2005

Well Marcie let me be perfectly candid: I think the typical elementary school teacher has, at best, average intelligence.  I have met very few elementary teachers that I would consider to be on the right side of the bell curve by a meaningful amount.

I don't even consider elementary school teachers to be a "jack of all trades".  And in fact, if they were, we wouldn't need mindless "zero tolerance" policies in the first place.

I for one would love to see national teacher IQ testing on elementary school teachers.  Given that the NEA tends to oppose any sort of merit-based testing of teachers, I can speculate as to why that is.

Incidentally, I can assure you that few "computer geeks" would be upset if an elementary school teacher called them a "moron". And it's not because computer geeks are unintelligent.

on Dec 04, 2005
Steven King makes millions a year writing horrific stuff like this.

But according to at least one turnip on JU, "zero tolerance" only applies to dirty Johnny who repeatedly gropes virginal Mary in the hallways. Other than that, it just aint happening. Innocent kids arent getting tossed out of school for having an aspirin in their backpack, or forgetting to remove their tiny pocketknife from their parka jacket after a weekend of camping.

Hmm, well, it *might* be happening. To just a few kids. Ok, Ok, maybe a few hundred. Who knows, maybe even a few thousand!

But they dont count a bit in the grand scheme of things, cus there's hundreds of thousands it never happens to.

Sighs..even turnips can reproduce though, and it will be interesting to see if this particular one feels the same way (at some future date) when its HER precious lil turnip-baby who has their 4.0 grade average ruined after being expelled for giving one of her crampy girlfriends a midol after history class.

As long as it's happening to other people's kids, who cares, right? It might as well not be happening at all.


We made a deal to ignore each other. You're not upholding your end of the deal. Who's the pooper now?

Well Marcie let me be perfectly candid: I think the typical elementary school teacher has, at best, average intelligence. I have met very few elementary teachers that I would consider to be on the right side of the bell curve by a meaningful amount.

I don't even consider elementary school teachers to be a "jack of all trades". And in fact, if they were, we wouldn't need mindless "zero tolerance" policies in the first place.

I for one would love to see national teacher IQ testing on elementary school teachers. Given that the NEA tends to oppose any sort of merit-based testing of teachers, I can speculate as to why that is.

Incidentally, I can assure you that few "computer geeks" would be upset if an elementary school teacher called them a "moron". And it's not because computer geeks are unintelligent.


I never claimed to be a genius. I never even claimed to be that smart. I think I'm probably about average. I don't have very much life experience, so that's a strike against me. I've never heard a teacher claim to be a rocket scientist. Or a mathematician. Or a sociologist. In fact...I don't really feel comfortable teaching older kids...I understand fractions and decimals and x-y=z, but I don't know if I could put it into language that a 4th or 5th grader would understand. That's why I teach the basics. I can handle first grade. Nothing too major going on down here.

I know the basics. I know where countries are, how to read and make maps, how to read, how to teach kids to read, how to add and subtract, basic geometry stuff, etc. And, I know about young children. I know about how their brains work, I know about their emotional needs and their social and physical needs as well. I don't *HAVE* to be a Ph.D. to teach first grade. And I'm not. And I never will be. I know lots more than my students need to know. I know what the state and my district say they have to know. And I teach it to them in using language, assignments, and activities that they can understand. If you want me to set up a chemistry lab and teach the students how aspirin is made in first grade, you're not going to get it.


on Dec 04, 2005
"Something like that is a LOT different than planning a murder of your teacher with your own two hands and writing about it, knowing full well she may see it."


Not if they are both a creative writing excercise, as you seem to be forgetting. Something done in bad taste doesn't constitute a threat, no matter how much Tex and the Mind Police want to say it.

If writing or talking about a hypothetical situation is "planning", then the standard you are setting for zero tolerance could have the government kicking down our doors at will. The current government could find a door to kick down over at DU on a daily basis, if not hourly. You either don't care about your rights, or you are pretending that kids shouldn't share them.

On another blog, I was told that I was paranoid, and that it isn't like principals would send kids home because they had a butter knife in their lunchbox. It took me less than 20 seconds to find that EXACT case on Google... and Marcie said it was just one case. I pointed out that there were many sites recounting many, many cases. Then she said it didn't matter if there were hundreds of cases.

When faced with the truth, perpetually-wounded Marcie ignores it. When she can't ignore it, she blacklists you, as she has done me yet again, as she does every time she gets into a conversation with someone she can't hold her own with.

If you don't like what Brad has to say about teachers, Marcie, maybe you should give up blogging. You do nothing but lend credence to his perspective.
on Dec 04, 2005
As I am the only teacher other than IB who has responded, I am assuming it *is* about me. And you are playing your "oh...it's myrrander" game. LOL...what a dumbass. Yes Baker. You are right. As always! I am wrong. Okay? Hows that? Better? Is that what you wanted to hear? Done!
on Dec 04, 2005
Speak for yourself I guess. Do you have children Kingbee? Or are you simply trying to reinforce the left-wing dogma of "Those damn ignorant breeders." that we see so often (and often seems to shine through on your blogs). In case you've beein a cave, the US over the past generation has been migrating from an industrial economy to an information economy. We're no longer a country of assembly line workers. A don't have the stat handy but I would go as far as to say that most American parents today have college degrees, something that wasn't the case a century ago.


no caves. don't need to have kids to know (nor to insult anyone who doesn't have them) every state in the union requires teacher to have a four-year degree. unless you're contending 100% of all parents have completed four years of college, you're wrong. and here i thought you were an engineer.
on Dec 04, 2005
William Bennett did not send my 7 year old son to the office for drawing a picture that they didn't approve of. But feel free to provide a link to any statement or policy that Bennett was involved on that could somehow be construed as supporting expelling small children because they draw stuff blowing each other up.


i've already pointed out the fact bennett originated the concept of zero tolerance and was the first person to proclaim it as policy when he was drug czar. it was a useless, stupid and despotic way to approach drug usage just like it's been a useless, stupid and despotic way to deal all the other issues to which it's been applied.

i don't know whose sons or daughters he had in mind. it's just one more example of the kinda repressive nonsense i expect from a dumbass like bennett.
on Dec 04, 2005
Oh yea, can you point to any people you know, any at all, that have been affected by the patriot act?


you're the one who said

What I find amusing is that the same people who tend to support zero-tolerance policies are the first ones to decry the Patriot act.


i was merely pointing out the fact that john ashford was the epitome of a pro-patriot act pro-zero tolerance kinda guy.
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