Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
It does a body Good
Published on September 27, 2005 By Dr Guy In Blogging

My Wife and I had planned on taking a couple of weeks vacation to go to her Nephew's wedding in California since last March.  So we did.  Instead of writing a "see you later" or "I am done" article, I debated if I was going to say anything at all.  I will admit, that I did drop hints, and at least one person picked up on them, and I did tell one person What was going on.  But he kept it to himself.

I decided at the last moment to just go and not announce.  I have seen too many announcements made lately, and people, they are really sorry.  For those who have read this far, let me warn you, this is not going into the forums because I will name names, and I do not apologize for what I am about to write.  For it is my observations and analysis, and I will not hold punches.

That being said, the almost 2 weeks off was refreshing.  Time to clear the old head and get back to originality and see what was going on in the rest of the world.

Then I come back to more of the same.  Only Worse.

In just 2 articles today, I got a thumbnail sketch of what has been happening and it was disgusting.  Moderateman was pleading with people to keep things in perspective, and Little_Whip was berating a couple of other bloggers and naming names.  As I did not read most of the sources for these 2 blogs, I cannot speak from first hand experience as to what exactly happened, but if either or both are even partially true, and I tend to think they may be mostly true - as neither of them has a habit of stretching the truth - then the lines are moving in the sand and allegiances are shifting.  For what?

Moderateman, from what I have read and can see, has not changed much.  He is the best 'in your face' person around.  But he does not hate anyone that I can see (with the possible exception of the Hanoi twins - neither of which are members here).  And he has not changed, nor has he gotten frustrated and compromised his principals.  I can see why in real life he is seen as a very loving and caring person.  Agree with him or not, but you always know where you stand with him.  I would be proud to call him a friend in real life, and glad to be able to do so in JU at least.

Texas Wahine went through some rough times before I left and if I am (again) to believe what I have read, some more while I was away.  When I first started reading Tex, she was a self proclaimed screaming liberal.  But any one who read her stuff knew that was not really the case.  She is a young, idealistic, caring and compassionate person.  Having hit some rough spots in the road, she sank to her cyber knees, cried, got over it, and strove to make it right.  She has not really changed, but Tex, I cant see you (or probably ever will) as a screaming liberal.  A caring compassionate left of center person?  Definitely!  And a very good person (take care of that little guy's pink eye!).  I am sorry you got used as a club in the latest.

Dharmagrl, now that one is an enigma!  She is not out of her 30s (Barely passed the midpoint!), yet she comes across as the list mom, if this was a list.  I do remember the blow up between her and LW back in the day, and in retrospect, that does seem so out of character.  I guess that was just proof she is human and not perfect. She tried to be the peace maker in this whole Peyton place episode.  Personally, I think she was bailing the ocean with a sieve, but that did not seem to deter her in her efforts to cool things down when they got hot.  I was glad to see her try to jump in, even if I knew that it would not have any effect.

In all of this, many took a sideline seat.  Parated2k because he does not want to dis anyone here, and he stayed true to his word (I am talking real people, not caricatures).  DrMiler was subdued as well, I think he did not and does not like to pile on when things get hot for stupid reasons.

Inbloom, Zoomba, Foreverserenity, Trudygolightly, Philomedy, and many others seemed to stay out of it (Like I said, I have not read the whole history so I may be wrong).  For the most part these are JU's coolers.  They may or may not agree with you, but they never have a cross word for you.  Kind of why I like reading their stuff so much as it rarely if ever gets into a flame war.

Kingbee, Thatoneguyinslc, Champus Socialist, latour99 and Stevededalus seemed to stay out of it.  I think (correct me if I am wrong) because while they may have agreed with one of the original principals, they did not care for the hate that was being spewed by said person.

On the right, you had Terpfan1980, rightwinger, Bakerstreet, AKABrutus and Chaos Manager seemed to stay away for the same reason as the left side did.  They just were not going to get into a hate match with anyone even if they agreed with any of the points. 

In other words, JU had its version of the senate 14.  But no one was voting or filibustering in this war.

I am sure there are others that I have missed, but that is not my point.

I have mentioned some of the mediators, some of the victims, and some of the stay out of it crowd.  Which leaves only 2 groups.  The combatants and the pilers on.  Let's look at the combatants first.

Dave, as anyone who has been on JU for more than a month knows, has no compassion, understanding or logic.  She is from the middle ages, where you believed what you believed and anyone who disagreed with you was a witch, heretic, fool, or worse.  She cannot elaborate why she believes what she does.  Her most intelligent justification is "Because my momma told me so".  The regulars know this, and while we have fun at her expenses at times, we don't take her seriously.  No sane rationally clear thinking person ever could.  So when she baits, rarely does she get a nibble.  The fish in her pond are just too smart for her plastic worms. 

But in her hate (for that is really all she has), is her own ignorance and stupidity.  I arrived back just in time to find she is again confined.  Even a monkey can be taught.  A Dabe cannot be.  Her worst nightmare, a member of the real extreme religious right, is just like her!  The only difference is that the person on the right gets their beliefs from a book.  Dabe gets them from Dabeland.

Knowing this, and knowing that she should never be taken seriously, sometimes she is.  In this case, the object of her attack had no opportunity to respond, for Dabe has her Blacklisted (bad form Dabe!).  And in her defense, Little_Whip kept her tongue (I think - I only read the most recent of her articles, and that is one source of my information). 

Little_Whip is described by several as a very good friend, and one that while they do not agree with her, they still respect her.  I can see that.  LAW (for short) can use that whip like tongue (fingers I guess since this is a written medium - but you get my intent) to cut down her harshest opponent.  She wields a keyboard like an épée, and in that she is a master swordsman.  But she also knows how to play the crowd.  And in this case, she is playing it again.  She wants not your sympathy.  That is not her cup of tea.  She does crave your attention and friendship.  She will walk an extra mile to help you out.  And with rare exceptions (must have been the moon cycle back in January, eh?), she does not attack YOU, just your ideas.

But she is on a vendetta now, and that is evident.  A sordid one that is beneath her.  But she cannot get off that horse.  It is not in her nature to do so.  She is not the British at Concord tho, she is (are?) the minutemen.  She does not hit you full in the face, she snipes at you from the sidelines.  But, leave her alone, and do not respond, and she eventually tires of the game.  She will have the last word tho.

She is just the opposite of Dabe, in almost every way.  She does not want and indeed scorns pity and sympathy.  But she is a friendship-a-holic.  That is what she has to have and goes far afield to cultivate it.  And she does well (this is not a bad thing, just an observation).  In essence, while she can be an 'in your face' debater, she rarely attacks YOU, just your ideas, unless YOU attack HER (not her ideas) first.

So it is inevitable that while MM and Dabe have a long history, the real battle is between Dabe and LW.  Opposites, contrary to popular belief, do not attract unless you are magnets.  It does not work in people.

Then you have the last group of players in this little Peyton place.  And for those, I am very disappointed.  They are the dog pilers. DO I need to mention names here?  I have mentioned so many, I guess the omission of the names is as bad as stating them.  Yes, that is you Phoenixboi and Manopeace.  Both of you have a lot of hate in you, and neither of you strikes me as a hateful person.  But you let your hate get to you so that Mano hung his friend out to dry and teamed up with Dabe, someone he has never claimed to have anything to do with other than a stray stand now and then.  And Phoenix jumped in where he did not belong as this had nothing to do with him.  But he has a vendetta and will use any medium to further it.

As one who was not here during the nasty, and who gets along with all of the fruitcakes on here, I can say I am sadly disappointed in both of you.  While one sided with LW and the other with Dabe, you both share something in common with Dabe.  Your hate is blinding you.  And negating whatever good you are trying to do, or whatever points you are trying to make.  I know one has issued an apology and the other attacked it (why?  The apology was not for you anyway), just remember the nails in the fence.  The nails may be removed with an apology, but the holes remain.

I don't know if anyone is going to read this as it is not in the forums, and is long as shit.  But I had to get this off my chest as I don't agree with Zoomba.  While I doubt I would recognize any of you if I was to pass you on the street, at least here, we are a community.  And we do interact on a personal level.  And I would be a coward if I did not call all the parties to task for what is nothing more than a stupid, childish, immature squabble.  One that Dharma should have sent you all to your rooms for.

So go ahead and roast me.  I have had my say.


Comments (Page 1)
2 Pages1 2 
on Sep 27, 2005
Wow that is quite a summary.

I am fairly new to JU so I am reading some of these posts with a "huh?" look on my face. But it's not taken me too long to see which way the wind is blowing.

I missed a lot of the fighting in the last few days because I don't always read the politcal threads.

I am sure it will clear up or clear out as time passes..

Welcome back anyway......
on Sep 27, 2005
A surprisingly accurate summary of a nasty situation you weren't even here for

And I try and limit my entry into the fray to a few stray comments on the blogs... and they're usually something along the lines of "Woah, take a step back and look at what you're writing" I see no need to write entire diatribes in my own blog on any of it usually.

Glad you're back and I hope you had a good vacation.
on Sep 27, 2005

 I usually don't get involved in these things.  This time, though.....I felt like I had to.  Mano made comments about LW having tried to break up Tex's marriage.  LW did nothing of the sort, and I KNOW that she didn't.  The incident that Mano is referring to involved ME and Tex's husband having a little set-to.  Mano immediately blamed LW for it.  Why?  I don't know exactly why, but I'll bet that his disdain and hatred of her had a LOT to do with it.  He might claim to be a man all about peace, but he's not when it comes to LW.  As you said, he has hatred in his heart.  (So, do I, incidentally.  There are some people here who, despit my best efforts, I simply cannot like....but that's a whole separate blog).

Here's what I see: Mano bends with the the  wind.  I cannot help but think that his current alliance with Dabe isn't somehow linked with their shared hatred of LW.   I'm sorry if you don't like that, Mano, but I'm just trying to tell it like it is.

LW flames a lot of people. She's very vocal about her opinion, and sometimes people see that as an attack.  Is she always right?  Not always, no.  But, at least she's honest.  I'd rather have her tell me that she's got a problem with me than smile to my face whilst she's preparing to stab me in the back.  She often says what people are thinking, but are too afraid or ashamed to say.

Dabe's foul mouthed, yes, but......I do agree with some of her views.  I just wish she'd find a different way of expressing them.  As the saying goes, you trap more flies with honey than you do vinegar.  But, Dabe is Dabe, and again, I have to respect that. 

I've tried to be the peacemaker, and I end up screwing myself AND other people too.  So, I'm not going to try and fill that role anymore.  I'm going to say it as I see it...yeah, I'll try to be diplomatic, but the underlying message isn't going to change. 

LW isn't the only one who's scewed up around here. She's just the most vocal of us.

on Sep 27, 2005

I am sure it will clear up or clear out as time passes..

Welcome back anyway......

It ususally does.  These things flare up, but I hate the piling on.  And before anyone accuses me of a 'holier than thou' attitude, yes, I have done it before as well.  But I am not proud of it, and try to avoid it at any cost now.  It makes one look childish and petty when done.

Glad you joined up!  Dont worry, most of the time, we snarl and scratch and spit.  But we rarely bite!

on Sep 27, 2005

A surprisingly accurate summary of a nasty situation you weren't even here for

And I try and limit my entry into the fray to a few stray comments on the blogs... and they're usually something along the lines of "Woah, take a step back and look at what you're writing" I see no need to write entire diatribes in my own blog on any of it usually.

Glad you're back and I hope you had a good vacation.

WOW!  Coming from THE Zoomba, that is high praise!  I am going to print it and mount it on my ego wall!

Thanks.  It was a very good vacation, except the last day.  We went out for a wedding (California) of a nephew, but on our last day, another nephew died.  They are doing the Autopsy today.  He was only 36.

on Sep 27, 2005

I've tried to be the peacemaker, and I end up screwing myself AND other people too. So, I'm not going to try and fill that role anymore. I'm going to say it as I see it...yeah, I'll try to be diplomatic, but the underlying message isn't going to change.

You synopsized what I read in the MM, Mano and LW blogs (I read back to Monday, but no further back).

But you are wrong.  You have been, are and will be a peace keeper.  It is in your blood.  You cant help it.  That is not bad.  But it does take a toll, and I guess sometimes you have to just yell "STFU and SIT DOWN".  Then after blowing it off, you will go back to being the peacemaker.

on Sep 27, 2005
Gosh Doc, again welcome back! And I'm miffed because you didn't say anything about taking a break....I forgive you anyway! I'm sorry to hear about your wife's nephew, he was so young!

You're right about me not getting involved in the flames. I never do unless it's outrightly unfair to someone I like. I don't get involved also because it's energy draining and I will say things I later regret. Some of the flames that have been going on are continuing and have a history even before I came to JU. The people who do those things are just not worth it to me because they don't want to change and they don't allow for any honesty and open debate to sit and "duke" it out fairly. They would rather be nasty and sling mud and then hide. I have no time for infantile behaviour. Some of these blogsites I don't even bother to visit, period.

I hate to see people I admire and like go at each other and when that happens I believe I've stepped in and given my opinion. (can't remember which flame but I think I did that once or twice).

I don't like arguments that are demeaning because they hurt people and I hurt easily and I don't do that. I'll come out slinging if someone behaves unfairly to me or someone I consider a friend, I've done that before but I truly don't like to unless I'm pushed. And I won't sit idly and be stepped on.

I've only one other thing to add because I'm ranting now...I know LW can be abrasive, we all know that, she's outspoken and won't back down from a fight. I really don't blame her because she's really been pushed at times beyond limits. I recently saw a thread that left me speechless and I was amazed and shocked at the gloating and dispicable behaviour of the two who were the only one at the time that I read it that were replying to each other. I've always had a good opinion of Mano (despite the antics he does get into) but that brought my opinion down a notch. For someone to allow themselves to be dragged to a level such as that, it's beyond me. I really was hurt for Whip who I did not say anything to because I was hoping it would go away. I guess that was wishful thinking. I had planned on writing a blog about her but Dharma did a lovely one and I didn't want to do overkill.

I like Whip because she can admit when she's wrong and be genuine about it. She does care for others by her actions and words and I would rather have someone tell me plain to my face what they really think than stab me in the back (I think someone else said that didn't they?!!) Plus she has other things to talk about other than politics.

I'm sorry that you had to come back to something like this, once more, will it ever end? But I guess that's just life. We might be in a cyber community but we're all real people and we will show our true emotions and our true self, at least most of us will. But let me say again I'm glad you're back Doc.

on Sep 27, 2005

And I'm miffed because you didn't say anything about taking a break....I forgive you anyway! I'm sorry to hear about your wife's nephew, he was so young!

Forever, I thought about telling everyone.  But when I decided to make it a vacation from JU, I decided I was not going to.  There have been too many "I need a break" or "I am leaving" articles that were just DQ moments.  So I figured no, I would just take a break!  And it was good!  recharged the old batteries.  I did not mean to worry anyone, but just wanted to relax (and boy did I!  I read a book and a half!)

You're right about me not getting involved in the flames. I never do unless it's outrightly unfair to someone I like. I don't get involved also because it's energy draining and I will say things I later regret. Some of the flames that have been going on are continuing and have a history even before I came to JU. The people who do those things are just not worth it to me because they don't want to change and they don't allow for any honesty and open debate to sit and "duke" it out fairly. They would rather be nasty and sling mud and then hide. I have no time for infantile behaviour. Some of these blogsites I don't even bother to visit, period.

I dont know how well you know Trudy, but you and Trudy seem like soul sisters.  Not in the respect you do everything alike or that you come from the same bolt of cloth, only in that you both are so mellow!  You have taken some of the worst shots life has to dole out and now you laugh at them!  So I never would see you or her getting into one of those flame wars.  And while I do love a good hot debate, I guess I am mellowing as I just dont see getting personal here with the community (except with the occassional anon troll).

I'm sorry that you had to come back to something like this, once more, will it ever end?

It will always end.  The difference between this time coming back and the rest of them, as I had some wrist slapping to do.  I may lose some friends over it, but that is what a fresh perspective gives you.

Whip is good, and at times she can be a real patoot!  She has admitted she is prejudice, but she admits it which means she is trying not to let it be here.  I can admire that.  I dont like some of her articles she writes, and show my displeasure not with flames, but with ignoring them.  Because she has the right to say those things.  Even if I dont agree.

But knowing she has prejudices, and tries not to let them affect her relationships is a big step, and one that I do admire. I am hoping eventually she does not see the color for the people, and she is getting better.  But while many of us probably have some prejudices (how many of us have crossed the street when some teens of another race were coming towards us?), most wont or dont talk about it.

on Sep 27, 2005

Reply By: little_whip

Little_Whip, I am glad you did read.  As I said, I could not post in forum as I did name names (I hope I was objective enough and not spiteful - that is in the eye of the beholder tho).

When I said Vendetta, I meant that.  You will not let the Mano thing go.  He wont either.  And so (I dont see your article today as sniping, but a real rebuttal and well thought out) you snipe at him in your comments here and there.  As he does you.  I did follow someone's link to the original article, and she did earn the confinement!  it would have been a good, albeit funny article if she had kept on topic.

You have never forced me to choose sides.  I know I was as ass back when I was on a vendetta against Myrrander, and you did call me to task (kind of late on that tho).  Since then, I try to debate the topic, not the person.  I think Zoomba pointed out that I was letting dabe get to me.  I was until Karma said I was being childish.  That was when my vacation became a vacation from JU as well.

I am glad you and Mano have declared the week of peace.  I will never chose sides when it comes to friends, but I will call friends to task when I think things have gone overboard.  In this case, you were gang banged, but reacted in a very restrained fashion.  It was just the culmination of the sniping that has been going on since the points thing.

on Sep 27, 2005

And to all.  We dont know what Bruce died from yet.  His sister called my BIL Sunday (we left Monday morning).  We went to see his mother (his father died in an accident about 6 years ago) and she said he did not show up for work, so they went looking for him.  They found him dead at his house, and they were going to do an autopsy either yesterday or today.  We have not heard yet what he cause was.

he was a bachelor (I only met him once, but he was nice enough), but not a wild man.  And there is no history of any real medical problems in his family, so we have no clue.  I will post a note when I hear what it was.  My wife and I got in late last night and so it may be another day as I am going to go to bed early.  jet lag!

on Sep 27, 2005
Dr. Guy:
Sooooooooooooooo good to see you back!
Have missed reading your articles and also hearing from you.

I DID read somewhere, one of your blogs? or on another's blog about your leaving.
NO, not on Mano's blog, somewhere else.
I just mistakenly thought it would be short-lived.......seems like ages.

YES, I make a point of staying out of these flame-wars and fights.
I've already had tooooooooo much of a chaotic life! I simply want to write
and have a peaceful existence enjoying my plants, flowers, music, and allllll the great
movies there are to see!

I LOVED this article of yours, it was written, it seems to me, from the viewpoint of one that
is watching from afar and has objectivity........

So sorry you lost a nephew......
it seems bittersweet, a wedding
and then a death, so sorry....

on Sep 27, 2005
I did not mean to worry anyone, but just wanted to relax (and boy did I! I read a book and a half!)


I'm glad you're ok and I'm glad you had a great time off. You should do it more often just tell someone who will let others know,!

And thanks a bunch for the nice words!
on Sep 27, 2005

I DID read somewhere, one of your blogs? or on another's blog about your leaving.
NO, not on Mano's blog, somewhere else.
I just mistakenly thought it would be short-lived.......seems like ages.

It was short.  It was only 2 weeks!  Actually, a day short of that.

Ok, Trivia time.  Do you know the difference between 100 degrees with no humidity and 90 with a lot of it?

100 degrees with no humidity feels ok in the shade! (we were out in the California Desert and the highs were 101-105).

on Sep 27, 2005

So sorry you lost a nephew......
it seems bittersweet, a wedding
and then a death, so sorry....

I think I will blog my vacation tomorrow.  Look for 1 wedding, 2 birthdays, and a funeral.  Sorry, I hate that movie but figure to use the title (sort of).

on Sep 27, 2005
welcome back my friend... MM sitting in lotus position chanting. oooooommmmmmmmmmmm oooooooommmmmmmm.
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