Quantifying a statement as a beliefe as you did the opening is completely legitimate. It is when a preference or "belief" is portrayed as a historical fact that arguments fall apart. In that regard we can agree that we have a difference of "beliefs" on that particular topic.

How many died in that Asia by guns, bombs abd napalm? No where near as many died after we left Viet Nam, as people who could not be "re-educated", nor even remotely as many dies under the communist regimes that sprouted in Cambodia and Laos after the war (you know the places where communism did not spread). BTW - the current government in Viet Nam is still communist, again make sure you have the facts straight before making claims of alleged fact to bolster your arguments.

How do you know for a fact that the sources of the intelligence (primarily hold overs from the Clinton admin) did not do the spinning? All the documents and trails seem to lead to those people. The Bush admin was faulty for not being more thorough and giving too much credibility to those sources.

On fighting the terrorists, I was referring to your attempts to make comparisons to Viet Nam, not whether it was a reason to go there in the first place. We are fighting an entirely different kind of foe, with entirely different reasons behind it (from both sides) than Viet Nam. They will fight us here or there. We are keeping the battle with them for the moment and out of your front yard. Be grateful for that, I am sure those who died on 9/11 would have been grateful to have the war kept from them. BTW - Chamberlain of England believed that if they gave Hitler what he wanted he would not do anything to attack the English people. Check your history, Hitler and Hussain are cut from the same mold. Hussain would definitely have done all he could to help the terrorists attack us once the UN stopped looking over his shoulder. He stated, publicly, many times that he would get us back for Kuwait. He hatched 2 different plots to asassinate Bush Sr. Documented attempts.

I have a son and two co-workers that were in Iraq and I was in Viet Nam Their first hand accounts tell me more than your pre-determined pronouncements of what is or is not. You are trying to make a case for what you already believe and are willing to omit and alter facts and history to make it sound more convcincing. Have you ever heard of the "Lie of omission"? Do you defeat those you believe to be liars by lying yourself? That is not how the anti-war movement of the 60s and 70s was conducted by the majority of those who led it. That is why it could muster such huge support and turn out and that is why the current movement can not. BTW - attending a protest does make someone a protester or an expert on the subject being protested. Did you ever speak before a microphone on your beliefs during those demonstrations? Did you speak to the press? Did you help plan some of those protests? Did you work with everyone, official and average person, to get your point across? I did when I returned. I also based my arguments on actual facts and acknowledged facts that fit the other side of the argument. The pain of that time was not hideous, it was necessary for our society to take its next step up. It was a growing pain and we faced it like a proud, intelligent and meaningful people.

Your repeated vague references as though they are the whole story, your repeating the words of others with an axe to grind or fame to capture without knowing yourself and your heightened emotionality when someone disagrees with you defeat your purpose. I may be disagreeing with you, but I am also trying to give you tools to make a better case so you can be heard. Stop knowing all the answers and listen a bit, you might find you can get a point across with more strength. You also might find that there always 2 sides to a story and the one you started with may not be the one you end up with.

You can start by not using the rediculous and totally false comparison to Viet Nam. As far as your re-defining what you mean by quagmire, where did you get your facts on our exit plans? Where did you get the information that demonstrates the same thing for Iraq as it applied to Viet Nam? Are you basing that solely on the fact that it is an actual war with a difficult enemy? Good thing the Russians did not take that view when that started to take Berlin or Hitler's thousand year Reich would still be around. I know where mine came from then and now, first hand account, documentation and listening to both sides of the argument. How about you?

--"Her original stated goal was an admirable one that many people gave her respect for."--

When I first heard about Cindy Sheehan wanting to meet President Bush I was all for it. What person who lost a loved one didn't feel for her. As each day followed though I have become more tired of it all. Especially when she disrespected other Gold Star Moms.

--"So apparently the purpose was not to see Bush, but to 'galvanize' a peace movement.  And of course allow her to erroneously compare herself to Rosa Parks."--

Is it because she loves the spotlight? It seems like she is walking a fine line now between honoring the memory of her son and being a puppet. Comparing herself to Rosa Parks is a joke. Rosa Parks inspired others and those others inspired others and a real movement was made. Where are Cindy's 'others' now? If it's such a movement in Crawford, where was all the inspired 'others' to step up to the plate when Cindy Sheehan left to visit her sick mother.

--"Cindy is preaching to a small choir which, by objective measures, has not grown since her circus act opened. The media have jumped on it in hopes it would help them enlarge the choir, but it does not appear there is any serious "movement" anywhere."--

I think her "movement" might've had a chance if she was only a grief-stricken mother looking to our leader for some kind of answer on why her son was taking away from her so soon. Unfortunately, she let herself be used by people who's hatred of Bush destroyed her credibility. Do you think her "handlers" care more about soldiers dying or trying to make Bush look bad? One more thing if her "movement" was really a movement that has captured the nation isn't it strange there isn't a high profile Democrat in Crawford, too?

It only damaged those who were victims of the hate and vitriol that is now resurfacing

that's such a foolish statement, it's difficult to know where to begin.

in addition to the combat casualties and their repercussions (i'd be willing to bet 95% of people born between those years had at least one relative, friend, classmate, lover, co-worker, etc who was killed, lost or injured in se asia), it caused caused millions of young americans to put their lives or plans on hold for one or another reason related to the war.

the war was also a huge sinkhole into which an incredible amount of the country's wealth (both in cash, energy resources) was dumped. it hurts the mind to imagine the huge quantity of oil consumed by the military during those years.

the loss of all that treasure caused the collapse of what had been an economy in which it was difficult not to make money. it also hastened the beginning of the end of america being the world's greatest manufacturer.

Guy, you really are a sicko whacked out sob. Nixon never got impeached. I said that.

Nixon ended it because he was thrown out of office for the watergate break-in

The above is what you said.  He was not thrown out of office as I told you.  So now who is the stupid sick moron?  You must be on drugs as you dont evern remember what you wrote!  What a whack job!

NO ONE DIED WHEN CLINTON LIED.

Except a bunch of aspirin factory workers in Sudan.  Sheesh what an imbecile!

Bush's mistake was giving too much credibility to the old gaurd placed there by his predessor instead of listening to a more tried and competent general like Powell.

The Clintonistas do seem to forget who GAVE bush the intel.  The Clintonistas!  So all these retarded peaceniks have no one to blame but themselves.

The anti-military, blame America crowd is not growing. It's just getting the usual preference in the media.

Exactly!  And anyone who wants to find out the truth, can today thanks to the Internet.  But the sheeple will continue to bleat the lies they are spoon fed by the MSM.

That is true Island Dog, it is getting preferential treatment in the media. Oddly enough a media led by mostly older voices that made their mark and name on the turmoil of the Viet Nam era. If it were to undergo a good thorough psychological analysis I would guess that it might turn out to be fame junkies trying to re-capture the old glory days. In the absense of sufficient substance in the present, they try to use the past that worked before.

Exactly.  That is what I have been tryin gto tell the nut job dabe all along, but she just closes her ears and starts chanting nananananananaana.

I was around during the vietnam protests. The soldiers came home to lots of hate and disdain, and that was a hard lesson learned. But, that didn't define the vietnam era.

Yes that did define the Vietnam war and the protests.  You were in a drug induced state at the time (probably still are given your shere stupidity).

Hussain would definitely have done all he could to help the terrorists attack us once the UN stopped looking over his shoulder.

While Saddam was not blowing up buildings himself, he was paying terrorists to blow up innocent people to the tune of $25k per family.  And what the sheeple refuse to accept is that this is a war on TERRORISM, not just the 9-11 terrorists.  Your Russia analogy is very apt as well.

Rosa Parks inspired others and those others inspired others and a real movement was made. Where are Cindy's 'others' now?

Rosa Parks inspired a movement to fight an injustice.  Sheehan is trying to inspire a movement to create one.

that's such a foolish statement, it's difficult to know where to begin.

How about with some facts then, cause the rest of your post is complete and utter tripe and hogwash.  That is real cute.  Vietnam caused the decline of America's Manufacturing!  That has to be the most moronic statement ever made about Vietnam!  Go take some Econ courses before you start spouting off like that and come across as a complete fool.

Your own memory seems to stop at the precise moment we pulled out of vietnam, either that or it is so selective there is no hope of EVER curing your ignorance on the matter.

I think it is both.

This is where you and I truly disagree. I'm convinced that bush wanted a war so badly that he disregarded any intelligence that did not point towards the remotest of possibilities that Iraq had WMD's. He dismissed that intel out of hand, and dragged us into it. Now, he's even saying that we need to protect the oil from the terrorists. Always spinning a new story for our reason for going to war. Our intel wasn't great, but the neocons spinned it. that spinning process is tantamount to lying. They lied plain and simple, whether you acknowledge it or not.

You might be convinced but you have no evidence to back it up. There is no evidence of any lies or conspiracies that you base you posts on.

I still tend to believe my own memory when it comes to your age, dabe,(that you are in your 40s, not 50's, unless of course you lied about that in the first place,

And, I don't believe you're a woman. Just some guy who is seeking a sex change operation and loves to impersonate women. And, you probably don't even have arthritis, but are just looking for some kind of compassion from a group of internet groupies. You probably never left the KKK, and are only saying it because you know it would garner so much disgust even from those who may be duped by you. And, you're probably only a teenage boy who wishes that he had a man to beat senseless and be beaten senseless. For all we know, you're probably a young black man full of self loathing, a Michael Jackson wannabee.