Abortion is MUrder.

And I dont think thaT comparing it to Abortion is a valid analogy.

Just to clarify, I was not attempting to compare killing a cow to an abortion. The analogy was intended to challenge an argument form, not to equate humans with animals. My point was that if you take an argument of the form "x is y", where x=meat and y=murder, and take it personally every time you hear it, you're gonna be living with a lot of guilt for a lot of your life. There are more philosophical and case specific things to take into consideration, and if you're going to villify everyone involved in something because of a simplistic and ultimately flawed argument of the form "x is y", you're eventually gonna end up calling the whole world, or a sizeable portion of it, evil.

One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not.

Wrong as well. We don't have to eat meat to live. We eat meat because we like it. At least I do.

One is done to live (meat eater) the other is not. Wrong as well. We don't have to eat meat to live. We eat meat because we like it. At least I do.

Your right on that so I'll change it. One is done on the most part for convenience (abortion) the other is not.

"It seems to me that the problem isn't that PETA believes that meat is murder, but that you do, and feel guilty for it. You're a meat eater.

OH, sorry, I thought that was the whole friggin point of this blog. If you and champas don't want to call likening the meat industry to the holocaust 'mocking', then live in your little world. If you don't want to believe they intend to imply culpability on the part of meat eaters, fine. That seems to be the point of Dr. Guy's blog, though, so you'll forgive me if I don't pattern my thoughts after yours.

"And since Myrrander hasn't even been present on this thread for a couple of days, I'm gonna assume you bringing him up has something to do with you thinking that he and I and Champas are all out to get you."

I do sense some sort of girlish infatuation. I've been in arguments like this online for years. Eventually some generic 'thinker' gets his underwear in a wad, and decides I'm not at all what he thinks I should be. Then he starts some idiotic farce like Monty Python's "Argument Sketch", and no matter what I post, he has to find some little nuance to be outraged about.

So continue to be a butthead, or not, I don't care. I just want you to know that nothing you say is going to effect the ideas I express, or how I express them. That'll be the last time I address you.

**

Sorry again, Doc, for diverting your post, it won't happen again. If you want to delete this feel free, but I just get tired the tweedle-dumb's war of attrition. People need a stepladder for their intellectual ego sometimes, I suppose.

And btw what would "you" consider inhumane slaughtering?

The current way that most slaughter houses run.  They are supposed to knock the animal unconscious with one quick blow (they put a rod in cows brains to do this).  However, it doesn't always work, and the animal ends up being fully aware of getting its throat slit and then bleeding to death while hanging from one leg.  And, worse, some of them don't even bleed out by the time they start getting skinned.

I also don't find pigs being crammed into a trailer and being half froze to death in the winter on their way to slaughter as "humane".

dear karma, your comment about where would humans be without reason, and the ability to create weapons, is about as valid as me saying where would crocs be with no teeth, or great white sharks be if they could not swim.

Crocs are born with teeth, great sharks are born being able to swim.  I have met many people born with the inability to reason.

You have obviously missed the point- if you were dropped in the wild, what food would you be able to get by yourself?  Humans are pretty pathetic without their artificial ways of obtaining food.

If we are so great, and have the ability to reason so well, why do we still employ such disgusting methods of obtaining our food?  Have you ever seen how veal bulls are treated prior to slaughter?  Have you ever been to a turkey farm?

If this is the best we can do, humans are truly sad.  But, our greed of having lots and lots of cheep meat leads to unethical ways that animals are treated.  It's pure greed.

The FACT is we are the apex predator and it's because we ate meat in early developement. {cavemen} because of meat eating our brains grew, because of brains getting bigger we could reason, because of reason we could create.

So...if they cavemen didn't have reason and ate meat, how does reason and meat eating relate now?

We didn't eat meat to gain reason-we eat meat because it's a cheap food source.  Over time, people found that meat had more calories and you didn't have to consume as much meat as you did veggies and fruits to stay alive.  Just out of pure survival we ate meat.  However, you don't need meat to live.  You need protein.  But, anything that was ever living (including plants) has protein in it.  People eat meat because they like it.  But, it's not needed.  It's nothing more than a food choice.

There will come a time that eating meat won't be so fashionable.  Meat is not an economical food source as our world population grows.

87 by Dr. Guy Wednesday, August 10, 2005

because of meat eating our brains grew, I wont go that far, but God or evolution made us meat eaters for a reason. And to deny it is to deny what human beings are. We can be humane about it, as I think we should. But to deny it is just plain stupid.

most anthropoligist agree doc, meat eating contribuyed to brain growth, in early man {cept fer the early democrats} heh heh

dear karma, is that not the whole point, crocs have teeth, we have weapons because we knew early on a human is no match for most big animals bare handed.

Of couse early man did nOT eat meat to gain reason, he ate meat because it could be readily available, but the facts are because of meat eating, mans brain grew.

I totally agree with you on how we treat our animals before and during slaughter, it's cruel and we should be ashamed.

One is done on the most part for convenience (abortion) the other is not.

I'd say meat eating is done entirely for convenience; and I don't agree that abortion is done mostly for convenience, but that's not a discussion for this thread.

I typed a response to Baker's rambling indictment of me, but the page wouldn't load and I don't intend to retype all of it. Contrary to Baker's beliefs, my life does not revolve around him. Here's hoping he actually means it this time when he says he will never talk to me again.

***I know this is off topic, doc, feel free to delete it.

You have obviously missed the point- if you were dropped in the wild, what food would you be able to get by yourself?

That would depend on you own ability to fashion tools and weapons wouldn't it?

how veal bulls are treated prior to slaughter

I have, what's wrong with it? I grew up raising vealers on our family dairy farm.

And btw what would "you" consider inhumane slaughtering? The current way that most slaughter houses run. They are supposed to knock the animal unconscious with one quick blow (they put a rod in cows brains to do this). However, it doesn't always work

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see where it didn't work. I'm not saying that it can not happen. IE: guy has hangover from night before, sick, etc.... But that is not on a regular basis is it? And while I'm at it....how would "you" do it? Use a gun and take a chance on possibly hitting someone with a ricochet or missing your mark and only wounding the animal? Club them to death? You can't use chemicals as that would taint the meat.

 

That would depend on you own ability to fashion tools and weapons wouldn't it?

Or how fast you can run.  Obviously, fruits, vegetables, eggs, and fish would be an easier way to sustain yourself....especially if you didn't have salt to preserve meat

I have, what's wrong with it? I grew up raising vealers on our family dairy farm.

Taking them away from their mom early, raising them in tiny little houses, and making them anemic to make their meat tender.....yeah, I see how that is ethical.  They don't even have a chance to live at all. 

I'm sorry, but I have yet to see where it didn't work. I'm not saying that it can not happen. IE: guy has hangover from night before, sick, etc.... But that is not on a regular basis is it?

 

Unfortunately, it happens all the time.  The longer that a person works in a slaughterhouse, the less they care.  The general population doesn't care because they never see it.  Out of sight, out of mind.  People just want to believe that it doesn't happen all the time. 

14 plants slaughter half of all cattle in the country, and about 10 plants slaughter half of the country's 101 million hogs.  Think about how many animals are slaughtered per day to keep up with that demand?  Do you *really* think that they care if the animals end up being tortured?  The top hog plant kills over 150,000 hogs per week.  That is about 15 hogs PER MINUTE.  Do you think that they will stop the line if a hog is being "stubborn"?  No- they just do what they can to keep up with production. 

And while I'm at it....how would "you" do it?

Well, obviously, I wouldn't do it at all   But, if the laws were enforced, and plants weren't allowed to produce at such an unrealistic pace, slaughter would be more humane.  The animals should have the right to be transported in decent conditions, not crowded so much that it can suffocate them.  Insurance providers should not cover loss of animals in transit (which is why the carriers don't care if the animal dies).  Slaughterhouse should get *huge* fines if there are any failed inspections.

There are laws in place to protect the animals, but they are not enforced.  When was the last time you heard about a slaughterhouse getting in trouble?  They don't.  The inspectors don't want to get into a battle, and the consumers doesn't want to see where their meat comes from.

One of my favorite quotes (by Paul and Linda McCartney): "If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian."   Nobody wants to see what really happens in there.  We just want our neat little packages of meat that we pick up at the store.

Sorry Karma, I ain't buying it any more than your buying what I'm selling.

plants weren't allowed to produce at such an unrealistic pace

Just an FYI...plants don't have a choice about the pace. It's a "consumer" driven industry. Ya know, supply and demand? We demand and they have to supply!

"Obviously, fruits, vegetables, eggs, and fish would be an easier way to sustain yourself....especially if you didn't have salt to preserve meat"

Sorry, Karma, but with that I have to open my mouth again. Agriculture grew up at the same time civilization did. The only reason humanity was able to start feeding itself this way is because started allocating labor, and divying up the result. I don't think there are many people alive in America today that could sustain their family on a farm they run by themselves without having a good stock of animal protien to supplement it.

Where do you guys live? There's a reason the areas with the most vegetarians have similar climates, even today. I find it very, very hard to believe that if you were dumped out in the forest you'd have an easier time gathering fruits, vegetables, and eggs than killing a squirrel. I think it would be very, very rare to end up stranded in a place in the world where enough food to keep you alive is easy to gather.

The fish thing I can agree with, but history is full of accounts of people who starved at sea. .

Lets not forget, folks, that there are areas in the world where it would have been completely, totally impossible to be a vegetarian up until the last hundred years. I dare anyone here to blame someone in Iceland 100 years ago for not being a vegetarian.

Also, I think some people who call meat a "convienence" really haven't added up the cost in most of the world of feeding a family on nothing but fresh vegetables.

It's a matter of cost/benefit.

If it costs you more energy to collect the nourishment than the nourishment provides, then it isn't going to work. Consider what you would expend preparing the soil, planting, tending, and picking enough, say, beans to sustain a family of 4 in protien for a year. Then, one bad bout of weather and your family starves.

Is it possible for 4 people to even do that, anyway? I don't beleive so. Maybe you could make the point that the cost/benefit evens out in tropical areas, but even the hunter/gatherers there spend more time hunting than gathering there.

This is an argument between theory and practice. I hear a lot of vegan theory, but I don't see much reality. When I do, it usually comes from people who happen to be well-positioned enough to undertake it.

Sorry Karma, I ain't buying it any more than your buying what I'm selling.

 

I thought that you would have a better rebuttal than that.  That was really disappointing.......

 

Just an FYI...plants don't have a choice about the pace. It's a "consumer" driven industry. Ya know, supply and demand? We demand and they have to supply!

If meat was more expensive, would there be as high of a demand?  If you had to pay $3.00 for a McD's hamburger, would people eat so much of it?  If a pound of hamburger was $7.00, would people consume so much, or would they start using other food sources?

Plants do have a choice- but greed trumps all.  Do you really think that people need to eat so much meat?  Americans eat more meat than any other nation.  We also have more heart disease than any other nation.  I assume that they have nothing to do with each other, right? 

Sorry, Karma, but with that I have to open my mouth again. Agriculture grew up at the same time civilization did.

You are separating discussions.  That whole thread was about humans being "the apex predator".  It has nothing to do with how the modern food industry got to that point.

Also, I think some people who call meat a "convienence" really haven't added up the cost in most of the world of feeding a family on nothing but fresh vegetables.

I called meat a food choice.  And, it is.  How many pounds of grain are needed to raise a cow to slaughter?  If you planted soy instead, how much soy protein would you have without the need to feed it to something that you slaughtered?

Vegetarians don't live on just veggies.  They eat fruits, veggies, grains, nuts, and legumes.  It doesn't take many nuts or legumes to equal the protein in meat.

Have you guys ever looked at what other nations eat?  Ever wonder why authentic asian cuisine has so many vegetarian options?  And, those same areas have really high populations- so how do they do it if meat is the only sustainable protein?