Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
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Published on July 22, 2005 By Dr Guy In Current Events

Moderateman has started a thread for lawyer jokes, and I have contributed my share.  As have others.  Lawyers are not a very respected profession, altho they are very well paid.  They scream they are just doing their job, and I guess their job is not the truth or justice, but to maximize the benefit to their client, whether it is right or not.

In that many do a very good job.  But doing a very good job as they define it, is disgusting to what most people would call a civil and just method.  And today we have a case in Point.

Alejandro Avila was just convicted of kidnapping assaulting, raping and brutally murdering 5 year old Samantha Runnion.  The DNA evidence was over whelming, and there was an eye witness to the abduction.  This story, while the details vary some, is all too familiar of late.

So what makes this one so special?  Nothing really.  But it is what his attorney's argued.  Here is part one:

The defense challenged the reliability of the DNA analysis and suggested that the material found inside Avila's car had been planted.

Ok, I could beleive that in some stretch of the imagination.  Planted evidence has been known, but there was just too much evidence.  Still, if the lawyer beleived him I can see where he would argue that.  But then, after the conviction, he argued the following:

After the conviction, defense attorneys urged jurors to spare Avila's life, arguing that the abduction was an impulsive act prompted by a brutal childhood in which he was beaten by his father, raped by an uncle and neglected by his mother.

See the double standard?  The Lawyer KNEW he was guilty as sin, and tried to argue a lie for acquital, and then tried to argue 'abuse' for sympathy!  He may have been doing his job, but how he did it was totally slimy and immoral.  I wont say unethical, but it clearly would be for most people.

As long as lawyers lie and argue both sides of the facts like this, whether it is in the best interest of their clients or nor, they are not going to get the respect of the general population.  If he believed in his clients innocence in the first case, why did he then try to excuse the behaviour in the second?

The answer is because it was his job.  It may be his job, but it is not mine, nor could I stomach doing it day after day.  Nor would I.  One has to look at yourself in the mirror every day, and the man that looks back could not be that slimy in my eyes.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jul 22, 2005
Defense lawyers have a place doc, but to lie, weasel and trick the jury is just plain wrong and if caught lieing they should be disbarred.
on Jul 22, 2005

Defense lawyers have a place doc, but to lie, weasel and trick the jury is just plain wrong and if caught lieing they should be disbarred.

I was going to save this for the first comment, but I will ask it now.

Ok, People, in Virginia (I dont know CA), the Jury that convicts, then sentences. 

If you had just convicted the guy, would you be more sympathetic to a plea that the evidence might have been tainted and to give him the benefit of the doubt so that should it later be proven he was innocent? Or would you be more sympathetic that he was an abused child that did this to a small child?

Personally, and I will go first, if I was on the jury, after hearing the defense and then the lame excuse during sentencing, he would have gotten the chair. Ok, I would not be on the jury because of my beliefs.  But that would be my inclination as it was apparent the attorney was lying in the first place and trying to excuse in the second.

on Jul 22, 2005
A lawyer is supposed to do the best for his client. And the means he can use are the means the accused have because of their rights. And the accused is allowed to lie. I don't have a problem with a lawyer lying in such a case. It's perfectly acceptable.

But it does mean that lawyers have willingly chosen a profession that includes lying as one of the standard tasks on the job. There are other jobs that involve similar tasks. Soldiers are supposed to kill, police men are supposed to imprison. But in all such cases society must remember what it is these people do. It is right to mention that soldiers kill, because it is their job. It is also right to say that the police imprison people, because that is their job. Both acts are, outside these professions, and outside the specific circumstances, despicable. So it must be right also to say that lawyers lie; because it is their job.

What I do not like and would like to see outlawed (but it won't be) is that members of the legal profession are active in politics and make laws. I find that highly suspect that there is a profession with the ability to create its own market.

If I was emperor for a day I would make it illegal for those allowed to practice law to be elected to parliament or executive positions in government. I can only imagine a better world if lawyers would have to work with laws created by non-lawyers.
on Jul 23, 2005

And the accused is allowed to lie.

Actually no, that ius caled perjury and is a crime.  They are allowed to say nothing

on Jul 23, 2005

What I do not like and would like to see outlawed (but it won't be) is that members of the legal profession are active in politics and make laws. I find that highly suspect that there is a profession with the ability to create its own market.

If I was emperor for a day I would make it illegal for those allowed to practice law to be elected to parliament or executive positions in government. I can only imagine a better world if lawyers would have to work with laws created by non-lawyers.

Actualy I dont know if you heard, but Maryland is decrying the fact that most of its state legislators are not lawyers and therefore they are passing bad laws.

Personally, I think that is just stupid, but it is Maryland after all.

on Jul 23, 2005
How does such a law qualify as bad?

Surely the civil servants who work with the secretaries and MPs have a legal background?
on Jul 23, 2005
The flaw as I see it comes as you say to guilt. A lawyer should do his best to prove the innocence of the accused, and fight for it as hard as they can. Any of us could find ourselves falsly accused, and we would want to use every resource possible to prove our innocence.

Now, when someone's actions are basically fact, there this silliness needs to stop. Lawyers, when faced with someone who most certainly killed someone, then shift their focus to getting a lesser sentence or a lesser punishment. A lawyer should NOT, in my opinion try to get a child killer a lesser sentence based upon a technicality or legal acrobbatics.

If he or she is guilty of murder or molestation, I think it is heinous to try to turn it into something less. It is a lawyer's job to uphold the law. If they spend most of their time trying to circumvent the legitimate punishments society deems fit for crimes, then they aren't upholding the law, they are working against it. It isn't a defense attorney's job to try and get dangerous people released into the community.

When I see a confessed child killer being painted as a victim, it makes me despise the profession in general. Sure, if the man claims innocence, a lawyer should try with all his power to see that he isn't convicted. Once a person's participation is certain, though, they have no business fighting the system of punishment we as voters desire for particular acts.

I think any of us here, were we falsely accused and prosecuted for a crime, would rather serve our time than degrade a system to the benefit of people who REALLY victimize humanity. The idea that I might create a precedent to gain my freedom that would be later used to free someone who will go on killing innocent people is sickening.
on Jul 23, 2005
BakerStreet,

I agree with you in principle. But this is not how it could possibly work. Your method would require the lawyer to hold loyalty to higher principles and not solely his client. That's not what a lawyer is for. A lawyer MUST be 100% loyal to his client and use whatever means he legally can to act in the best interest of his client, the person he must be 100% loyal to.
on Jul 23, 2005
No, the lawyer needs to first be 100% loyal to the law. If not, if the client is more important, then the rule of law is less important than their interests, just an obstacle in the job. You have to remember that their clients are also part of society, so when they betray society they also betray their clients.

That's why we end up with a system where lawyers try and get self-confessed child-killers minimal or non-existant sentences sending them back out into society to re-offend or be victimized by those of us who are FORCED to protect ourselves from them. That isn't in ANYONE'S interest, not even the child-killer's, since it will more often lead to further victimization of others and problems for the criminal.
on Jul 23, 2005
Different legal systems work on different principles. The English and American systems of Common Law are essentially adversarial, working on the basis that the truth will emerge from the clash of evidence. Lawyers are thus not concerned with truth; their only interest is to prosecute or defend to the best of their abilities. The role of the judge is essentially that of 'referee'; reaching a verdict is the job of the jury.

The most infamous problem with this system is that your freedom or incarceration (or worse in the USA) can depend as much if not more on the skill of your lawyer as it does on the facts of the case. And as skill is a buyable/sellable commodity a wealthy person might have more of a chance of walking free than someone of more modest means.

Other legal systems in Europe and elsewhere based on Civil Law (including, to some extent, the Scottish system and - I believe I read somewhere - the system in Louisiana) are more 'investigative' in character. The judge will play a more active role in trying to determine the facts of the case and will often be involved in questioning the witnesses. In some Civil Law systems juries are not used at all.

Both systems have strengths and weaknesses. The main point is that in the Common Law system the defence lawyer is essentially the servant of the accused and not of the court, the legal system or society in general. This is because this system is historically based on the idea that it is better that 'ten guilty persons go free, than one innocent person be falsely imprisoned'.
on Jul 23, 2005
"No, the lawyer needs to first be 100% loyal to the law."

No. That is exactly wrong. At least for defence attorneys.

Chakgogka, the differences between Common Law and Civil Law you cite have nothing to do with the duties of a defence attorney.
on Jul 23, 2005
"No. That is exactly wrong. At least for defence attorneys."


I don't know you, but I have known a *lot* of lawyers. Half my friends from college ended up in law school, and through my dad's business partners I was acquainted with many. A lawyer, no matter what their job at any given time, has the explicit duty of adhering to and upholding the law.

You realize lawyers have to take an oath to be approved by the Bar, right? Here's a couple.

Colorado:

"I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Colorado; I will maintain the respect due to Courts and judicial officers; I will employ only such means as are consistent with truth and honor; I will treat all persons whom I encounter through my practice of law with fairness, courtesy, respect and honesty; I will use my knowledge of the law for the betterment of society and the improvement of the legal system; I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the defenseless or oppressed; I will at all times faithfully and diligently adhere to the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct."


Montana:

"I do affirm:
I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Montana:
I will maintain the respect due to courts of justice and judicial officers;
I will not counsel or maintain any proceedings which shall appear to me to be taken in bad faith or any defense
except such as I believe to be honestly debatable under the law of the land;
I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to me such means only as are consistent with
truth and honor, and will never seek to mislead the judge or jury by an artifice or false statement of fact or law
;
I will maintain the confidence and preserve inviolate the secrets of my client, and will accept no compensation
in connection with my client’s business except from my client with my client’s knowledge or approval;
I will be candid, fair, and courteous before the court and with other attorneys, and advance no fact prejudicial to
the honor or reputation of the party or witness, unless required by the justice of the cause with which I am charged;
I shall faithfully discharge the duties of an attorney and counselor at law to the best of my knowledge and ability;
I will strive to uphold the honor and to maintain the dignity of the profession to improve not only the law but the
administration of justice.”"


Louisiana:

"I solemnly swear (or affirm) I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Louisiana;

I will maintain the respect due to courts of justice and judicial officers;

I will not counsel or maintain any suit or proceeding which shall appear to me to be unjust, nor any defense except such as I believe to be honestly debatable under the law of the land;

I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to me such means only as are consistent with truth and honor, and will never seek to mislead the judge or jury by an artifice or false statement of fact or law;

I will maintain the confidence and preserve inviolate the secrets of my client, and will accept no compensation in connection with a client's business except from the client or with the client's knowledge and approval;

I will abstain from all offensive personality, and advance no fact prejudicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness, unless required by the justice of the cause with which I am charged;

I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the defenseless or oppressed, or delay any person's cause for lucre or malice.

So help me God."


A lawyer's first allegience is to the sanctity of law. Granted, most waste lawyers feel as you do that the law is something to be bent and twisted to fit their clients. In reality, they are there to see that justice is served for their client.

If they abuse the system to free a guilty party, they are NOT upholding justice. They most certainly do not swear to place the freedom of their client above all else, regardless of guilt or innocence. It's asinine to believe so.
on Jul 23, 2005
Chakgogka, the differences between Common Law and Civil Law you cite have nothing to do with the duties of a defence attorney.


Not so. In the adversarial system of Common Law, the defence attorney is the only real resource that the defendant has. It is therefore theoretically possible that a defendant could be convicted entirely due to his/her attorney's incompetence (although the silver lining might be a chance for lucrative litigation ). In a Civil Law system this is also possible, but a little less likely due to the more 'pro-active' role of the court.

One note of caution however. Common Law and Civil Law are abstractions. Some legal systems lean more to one side than the other and some are mixed (Scotland, Canada). Over the years there has been a lot of mutual influence.
on Jul 24, 2005
This past week I received letters guaranteeing me hundreds of millions of dollars...
I don't wantto seem selfish... so I am throwing this one out for grabs... contact the lawyer if interested and good luck!

MY BLESSINGS,

My name is Mrs.Henrietta Jenkins Walsh I am a dying woman who have

decided to donate what I have to you/ church. I am 59 years old and I

was diagnosed for cancer about 2 years ago, immediately after the
death



of my husband, who had left me everything he worked for. I have been

touched by God to donate from what I have inherited from my late

husband to you for the good work of God than allow my relatives to

use my husband hard earned funds ungodly.



Please pray that the good Lord forgive me my sins. I have asked God

to forgive me and I believe he has because He is a merciful God.



I will be going in for an operation tomorrow morning I decided to

WILL/donate the sum of $3,500,000(Three million five hundred thousand

dollars) to you for the good work of the lord, and also to help the

motherless and less privilege and also for the assistance of the

widows according to (JAMES 1:27).



At the moment I cannot take any telephone calls right now due to the

fact that my relatives are around me and my health status. I have

adjusted my WILL and my Executor is aware I have changed my will, you

and him will arrange the transfer of the funds from the Private

Finance company to your humble self.



I wish you all the best and may the good Lord bless you abundantly,

and Please use the funds well and always extend the good work to

others.Contact my Executor James Porter with this specified

Email:js_porter@lawyersmail.com with your full names contact

telephone/fax number and your full address and tell him that I have

WILLED ($3,500,000.00) to you and I have also notified him that I am

WILL-IN that amount to you for a specific and good work. Thanks and God
bless.





NB: I will appreciate your utmost confidentiality in this matter until

the task is accomplished as I don\\\'t want anything that will

Jeopardize my last wish. And Also I will be contacting with you by

email as I don\\\'t want my relation or anybody to know because they are
always

around me.





Regards,



Mrs.Henrietta Jenkins Walsh


Be sure to keep this confidential as she requests or you won't get the money.
Now, I ask you.... what kind of lawyer would get involved in such a scam?
on Jul 24, 2005
Lawyers "demand" respect! But alot of them do NOT deserve it.
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