Kill as many as you need

on May 29, 2005

Here's my thoughts for what they're worth...

Couples are creating multiple embryos in their quest for a pregnancy, with numerous embryos going unused. Yes, some couples may go back and use more of the embryos for a later pregnancy (if there is a god, I wonder what he thinks about having a living being with a soul on ice for a couple of years, stuck in an embryonic state?), and some may donate the embryos to other couples, but that still leaves a lot of potential material for research and medical application.

Rather than casting these excess embryos aside, wouldn't it be preferable to use them to help sustain life?

I look at it this way...if there is a god, then the "souls" of these embryos, as well as aborted fetuses, return to god. They experience none of the pain and abuse and sorrow of life. (Also important to note that fetuses do not have the nervous system developments required to experience pain until around the 20th week of gestation). The ethical dilemma here would be more along the lines of creating these embryos and storing them than using them once they are created and deemed unneeded for pregnancy.

On the other hand, if there is no god, then there is no "soul." Consciousness and personality are the manifestation of the nervous system. If this is the case, then an embryo or early fetus is not going to be aware or experience any harm as a result of abortion or stem cell research methods.

Would I sacrifice my child for my own life? No.

Would I sacrifice your child for my life? No.

Would I sacrifice your life for mine? No.

Would I accept organs or tissue from your body were you to pass away and those organs were needed by me in order to save my life? Yes.

Would I accept medical care that is based in the use of stem cells? Yes.

The difference to me is a) the embryos already exist and must be either used or discarded and

an embryo is not capable of independent life...it is not a child with thoughts and feelings and experiences...at that point, it is only a group of cells (yes, human cells) and not developed enough to be damaged by its use in research and treatment.

2

zinkadoodle

on May 29, 2005

How many of you would save a child by sacrificing an already discarded zygote?

How many of you would save YOUR child by sacrificing an already discarded zygote?

If a building was burning down and you had the choice of saving a child or saving a petri dish with zygotes, which would you save?

How many of you would sacrifice someone's child to "free" an Iraqi?

How many of you would sacrifice YOUR child to "free" an Iraqi?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................. something hypocritical this way comes............

3

LIL RED

on May 29, 2005

Agree to life myself. If one can not take care of there own life and the lives that depend on them why should they bring in another one. Yes use birth control or other methods. Hormones change, accidents happen, plans change. Plainly shit happens. The choice is there for good reasons, not wrong ones.

lilred.

4

LIL RED

on May 29, 2005

Agree to life myself. If one can not take care of there own life and the lives that depend on them why should they bring in another one. Yes use birth control or other methods. Hormones change, accidents happen, plans change. Plainly shit happens. The choice is there for good reasons, not wrong ones.

lilred.

5

Community AT Work

on May 30, 2005

Well... the woman diagnosed with cancer during her pregnancy seems to be in that situation. Her life or her baby (who probably will not make it because she would die rather quickly without imidiate treatment). Does it matter that she and her husband has kids already?

I wish to be pro-life, but I just can't see there NEVER being a reason to abort a child. Its just not that black and white.

6

Dr Guy

on May 30, 2005

The difference to me is a) the embryos already exist and must be either used or discarded and

an embryo is not capable of independent life...it is not a child with thoughts and feelings and experiences...at that point, it is only a group of cells (yes, human cells) and not developed enough to be damaged by its use in research and treatment.

Yes, they are damaged. But that is not your arguement, and I can respect that you do not believe life begins at conception.

But follow this simplistic line: many children die. many adults die. IN the end we all die. Many fetuses are aborted by the woman's body. But once you have mixed the X and Y chromozone, what is going to happen? One of 2 things.

A child will be born.

it will die.

just like all of us. That is the crap shoot of life. But to intentionally kill a child just because he has not sucking on his mother's teat? That is what you are asking of us. And we cannot. For in the end, a new born infant is as helpless as a newly fertilized egg. The only difference is the growth medium.

7

Dr Guy

on May 30, 2005

How many of you would save a child by sacrificing an already discarded zygote?

How many of you would save YOUR child by sacrificing an already discarded zygote?

If a building was burning down and you had the choice of saving a child or saving a petri dish with zygotes, which would you save?

How many of you would sacrifice someone's child to "free" an Iraqi?

How many of you would sacrifice YOUR child to "free" an Iraqi?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................. something hypocritical this way comes............

And again you miss the point entirely and have become the intolerant that you so want to paint everyone else with.

having to choose who to save when one must die, is never an easy decision. But except for some extreme cases, why must we be put into the position of having to chose? We do not. You would have us choose, and you would be guilty of murder for making the choice impossible.

As I said, you can call it a zygote, fetus, embryo or anything else you want if that is how you justify murdering other humans. But by so labeling, you are avoiding the reality and perhaps your own feelings.

if there is any hypocrisy, it is on your part.

8

Dr Guy

on May 30, 2005

Agree to life myself. If one can not take care of there own life and the lives that depend on them why should they bring in another one. Yes use birth control or other methods. Hormones change, accidents happen, plans change. Plainly shit happens. The choice is there for good reasons, not wrong ones.

Choice is a Big Mac or Whopper. Choice is not a convenience just because our libido got too active. What choice does the child have? Did anyone ask them? Why not we put it to a vote and ask every child if they want to be aborted or not. majority rules.

let's try that.

9

Dr Guy

on May 30, 2005

I wish to be pro-life, but I just can't see there NEVER being a reason to abort a child. Its just not that black and white.

can you see never killing a 2 year old? Same argument, different age.

And the woman with Cancer? She took the baby to term, and died. She did not abort it.

10

dharmagrl

on May 30, 2005

I can see your point here. I understand that abortion, to some people, is murder. Both are the cessation of life, whether it's a zygote or a adult human.

I have thought about abortion. I was very much for it until I was faced with having to make the decision myself.

Our Jake was an unexpected pregnancy. We were flat broke at the time...and yes, we considered abortion. I did, anyway. For about a week, my days and nights were pretty much consumed with thoughts of what to do.

I couldn't do it. And, as you can tell, I didn't do it. And, I'm glad that I didn't do it. My gap-smiled, tow-headed handsome little dude would not be here if I had been able to do it. I cried myself to sleep more than once after he was born, thinking about what I had considered doing. Yes, things were rough financially, and they were that way for a while....but he was so totally worth it.

I also often wonder how many other people who have considered abortion but not done it would say that they were sorry they ever had the child? How can anyone look at the face of an innocent infant and say that they wish they'd killed them before they were born?

My thoughts on abortion are changing. Whilst I won't impose my will and standards on anyone else, I do know that it wasn't the right thing for me to do, and I also know that I don't agree with it being used as a form of birth control. Accidents happen, yes.....but how many times does an accident have to happen before it's no longer an accident?

11

Dr Guy

on May 30, 2005

Whilst I won't impose my will and standards on anyone else, I do know that it wasn't the right thing for me to do, and I also know that I don't agree with it being used as a form of birth control.

You see, I respect that. And also your compassion for my point of view. I am not going to make you kneel to my beliefs. I would hope that eventually all come to my beleifs. But through intelliegent reasoning and not blind faith.

Not all on the opposite side want me to consent to murder. Unfortunately, too many do.

12

dabe

on May 30, 2005

"I would hope that eventually all come to my beleifs. But through intelliegent reasoning and not blind faith."

And, therein lies the rub. What the freakin' hell makes you think that I, or zinkadoodle, or anyone else who doesn't think like you do, are not basing our decisions on intelligent reasoning? How utterly disgusting your thought processes are........ As far as I can tell, you're insistence upon forcing those of us who don't agree with you is because of YOUR blind faith. I'm not forcing anything upon you. If you don't believe in having an abortion, then don't freakin' have one. But, do not tell me what I am supposed to believe or do. How freakin presumptious of you.

As for stem cell research, AGAIN for the horrifically dense, the cells that would be used are doomed for disposal anyway. And besides, I do not accept the premise that they are human beings. That is my belief, and it is not blind faith.

Holy shit, you make me wanna puke, you are so blatantly arrogant and stupid.

(It's so good to be back from my vacation

)

13

dharmagrl

on May 30, 2005

Holy shit, you make me wanna puke, you are so blatantly arrogant and stupid.

Wow, Dabe....why don't you tell us how you really feel?! LOL

Having said that, I can agree with your thoughts about imposing your will on someone else. I just wouldn't have put it so..bluntly, I guess.

DG, let me ask you this: are you in favor of the death penalty? Can you draw a paralell between the death penalty and abortion? After all, they're both killing, right?

14

drmiler

on May 30, 2005

Can you draw a paralell between the death penalty and abortion? After all, they're both killing, right?

Your comparing apples and oranges there D. Why the death penalty? Because the person in question did something so horrific that a jury deemed that he/she should die in reparation for the crime. What crime did the unborn commit?

15

dharmagrl

on May 30, 2005

Why the death penalty? Because the person in question did something so horrific that a jury deemed that he/she should die in reparation for the crime. What crime did the unborn commit?

...and I understand that, but they're still legalized killing.