Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Who kept slave longer?
Published on September 28, 2005 By Dr Guy In Politics

There is and has been a big brouhaha about the confederate battle Flag (See DrMiler's posts in the forum for a picture).  It is supposed to represent slavery.  But that is just what the Politically Correct people want you to think.  For the truth is anything but.  So for the uninitiated, a little Quiz.

1. What state(s) had legalized slavery the latest?

2. What is the CSA (Confederate States of America) flag?  Describe it.

3. Under which flag was slavery practiced the longest?

4. Under which American Flag was Slavery practiced the longest?

5. How many people were enslaved under the rule of the Confederate States of America?

6. How many Americans were enslaved Under the united States of America?

7. When did Slavery Officially End in America?

Now, anyone answering these questions, then go to the Essay question.

8. In 50 words or less, explain how the Confederate States of America Flag is on a footing with a nazi Swastika.

This is a challenge to all.  I know Dabe cannot answer here, but Dabe, I will respond if you post an article answering these questions on your blog.  For the rest, answer as many of these questions as you can.  You need not answer them all.


Comments (Page 1)
on Sep 28, 2005
Let me clarify number 5.  How many were Legally enslaved.  As we all know, people are enslaved all over the world even today, most illegally.  Except in Africa.
on Sep 28, 2005
Since you pose this as a question to all, I'll take a stab at it.

1. Which state had legalized it the latest? I wasn't aware slavery had to be legalized. I'm aware of it having to be illegalized in certain states.
2. Stars and Bars was the first. The second was the southern cross (not the constellation) in the canton on a white field. The third was exactly the same as the second, except for a red vertical bar on the right side.
3. Don't know.
4. Misleading question given that the proponents and perpetuators slavery in America were from the very states that seceded. If the Union under the Stars & Stripes was such a slavery-friendly land, why then did the states secede? Tariffs, right? That's what the Mason Dixon line and The Missouri Compromise represented right? Was secession an end to itself? If so, why was the secession from Virginia of West Virginia opposed by Confederate secessionists in Virginia?

States' rights was the issue, alright. But states' rights with regard to what? A legal drinking age? Automobile regulations? Abortion? Read the Constitution of the Confederacy. The first three articles deal with the separation of powers between the three branches of government. Within Article IV it makes it clear the slavery is a right of the slaveholder:

Article IV. - The States
Section 2 - State citizens, Extradition
1. The citizens of each State shall be entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States; and shall have the right of transit and sojourn in any State of this Confederacy, with their slaves and other property; and the right of property in said slaves shall not be thereby impaired.
2. A person charged in any State with treason, felony, or other crime against the laws of such State, who shall flee from justice, and be found in another State, shall, on demand of the executive authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having jurisdiction of the crime.
3. No slave or other person held to service or labor in any State or Territory of the Confederate States, under the laws thereof, escaping or lawfully carried into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor; but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such slave belongs; or to whom such service or labor may be due.


Constitution of the Confederacy

5. Slaves were approximately 33% of the 9 million population of the Confederacy in 1861.

6. Don't know. See Response #4

7.
Amendment XIII (the Thirteenth Amendment) of the United States Constitution states:

Section 1
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The thirteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several states by the Thirty-eighth Congress, on January 31, 1865, and was declared, in a proclamation of Secretary of State William Henry Seward, dated December 18, 1865, to have been ratified by the legislatures of twenty-seven of the then thirty-six states. The dates of ratification were:

1. Illinois February 1, 1865
2. Rhode Island February 2, 1865
3. Michigan February 2, 1865
4. Maryland February 3, 1865
5. New York February 3, 1865
6. Pennsylvania February 3, 1865
7. West Virginia February 3, 1865
8. Missouri February 6, 1865
9. Maine February 7, 1865
10. Kansas February 7, 1865
11. Massachusetts February 7, 1865
12. Virginia February 9, 1865
13. Ohio February 10, 1865
14. Indiana February 13, 1865
15. Nevada February 16, 1865
16. Louisiana February 17, 1865
17. Minnesota February 23, 1865
18. Wisconsin February 24, 1865
19. Vermont March 9, 1865
20. Tennessee April 7, 1865
21. Arkansas April 14, 1865
22. Connecticut May 4, 1865
23. New Hampshire July 1, 1865
24. South Carolina November 13, 1865
25. Alabama December 2, 1865
26. North Carolina December 4, 1865
27. Georgia December 6, 1865




Ratification was completed on December 6, 1865. The amendment was subsequently ratified by:

28. Oregon December 8, 1865
29. California December 19, 1865
30. Florida December 28, 1865 (Florida again ratified on June 9, 1868, upon its adoption of a new constitution)
31. Iowa January 15, 1866
32. New Jersey January 23, 1866 (after having rejected the amendment on March 16, 1865)
33. Texas February 18, 1870
34. Delaware February 12, 1901 (after having rejected the amendment on February 8, 1865)
35. Kentucky March 18, 1976 (after having rejected the amendment on February 24, 1865)
36. Mississippi March 21, 1995 (after having rejected the amendment on December 4, 1865).


8. It's not on footing with the swastika.
on Sep 28, 2005
Don't get me wrong, Dr. Guy. I think the Confederate Battle Flag is being separated from its Civil War implications. There was and is more to the South than just slavery, or the legaacy of it. If the flag wavers have disavowed slavery, then what is the problem people have with the flag as representative of regional hertage? History is important, but it isn't everything. The contmporary aspects can't be overlooked. They must be stressed.
on Sep 28, 2005
Amendment XIII (the Thirteenth Amendment) of the United States Constitution states:

Section 1
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Section 2
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

The thirteenth amendment to the Constitution of the United States was proposed to the legislatures of the several states by the Thirty-eighth Congress, on January 31, 1865, and was declared, in a proclamation of Secretary of State William Henry Seward, dated December 18, 1865, to have been ratified by the legislatures of twenty-seven of the then thirty-six states. The dates of ratification were:

1. Illinois February 1, 1865
2. Rhode Island February 2, 1865
3. Michigan February 2, 1865
4. Maryland February 3, 1865
5. New York February 3, 1865
6. Pennsylvania February 3, 1865
7. West Virginia February 3, 1865
8. Missouri February 6, 1865
9. Maine February 7, 1865
10. Kansas February 7, 1865
11. Massachusetts February 7, 1865
12. Virginia February 9, 1865
13. Ohio February 10, 1865
14. Indiana February 13, 1865
15. Nevada February 16, 1865
16. Louisiana February 17, 1865
17. Minnesota February 23, 1865
18. Wisconsin February 24, 1865
19. Vermont March 9, 1865
20. Tennessee April 7, 1865
21. Arkansas April 14, 1865
22. Connecticut May 4, 1865
23. New Hampshire July 1, 1865
24. South Carolina November 13, 1865
25. Alabama December 2, 1865
26. North Carolina December 4, 1865
27. Georgia December 6, 1865




Ratification was completed on December 6, 1865. The amendment was subsequently ratified by:

28. Oregon December 8, 1865
29. California December 19, 1865
30. Florida December 28, 1865 (Florida again ratified on June 9, 1868, upon its adoption of a new constitution)
31. Iowa January 15, 1866
32. New Jersey January 23, 1866 (after having rejected the amendment on March 16, 1865)
33. Texas February 18, 1870
34. Delaware February 12, 1901 (after having rejected the amendment on February 8, 1865)
35. Kentucky March 18, 1976 (after having rejected the amendment on February 24, 1865)
36. Mississippi March 21, 1995 (after having rejected the amendment on December 4, 1865).


Did you also note that when this was signed that the civil war was only 2 months from being "over"? Civil War 1861-1865 Lee surrendered in April 9th of 1865.
on Sep 28, 2005
The amendment was proposed on Jan 31, 1865. It wasn't ratified by 2/3 of the state legislatures until Dec 6, 1865--nearly eight months after Lee's surrender.

Since secession was not recognized (as there is no legal provision for it that I'm aware of), and with a Confederate surrender, there was no such thing as an independent CSA. What difference does it make that amendement was proposed before hostilities ceased?
on Sep 29, 2005
I've often wondered what role slavery played in the First American Civil War (1775-1783).

The British were the prime players in the Atlantic slave trade, profiting hugely from human misery. Yet, public opinion in Britain seemed to turn decisively against slavery much earlier than in any other country. In the early 1790s the British parliament, after unprecedented public agitation - (in 1788 over one hundred petitions calling for the abolition of slavery had been presented to Parliament in the space of three months alone) - was on the point of abolishing slavery. This was only forstalled by aristocratic panic at the contemporary revolutionary terror in France which made any kind of radicalism seem dangerous.

Abolition, however, was only postponed. By 1807 the slave trade was abolished in Britain and any 'new territories'; in 1827 Britain declared that participation in the slave trade was piracy and punishable by death; by 1833 slavery itself was outlawed throughout all of Britain's colonial possessions.

Abolitionism was official British government policy, not just within British territory, but globally. At the Conferences of Paris and Vienna (1814-15) that ended the Napoleonic Wars, the British representatives tried, with little success, to get other countries to also adopt an abolitionist position.

The British and Foreign Anti-Slavery Society was an extraordinarily effective lobbying group. The Brazilian slave trade was effectively ended by British pressure, that didn't stop short of a threat to declare war if it were not done.

This has led me to wonder: if British public opinion was already so decisively against slavery by the 1780s, then surely that movement would have already been fairly strong in the 1770s. So, amongst the American Founding Fathers so enraged by 'taxation without representation' were there also a number who calculated that, unless they broke away from Britain quickly, the British parliament would take away their slaves? An interesting thought...
on Sep 29, 2005
Oh, and Doc, I forgot to say, it's really nice to see you back.
on Sep 29, 2005
This has led me to wonder: if British public opinion was already so decisively against slavery by the 1780s, then surely that movement would have already been fairly strong in the 1770s. So, amongst the American Founding Fathers so enraged by 'taxation without representation' were there also a number who calculated that, unless they broke away from Britain quickly, the British parliament would take away their slaves? An interesting thought...


Among the founding fathers they probably were no such sentiments. But I imagine that among their supporters in the 13 colonies they were many who wanted independence for several reasons that had nothing to do with liberty.

Slavery was one of them. Another one was the willingness to settle on Indian land in Kentucky. I think the latter was a stronger argument.
on Sep 29, 2005
Among the founding fathers they probably were no such sentiments.

I suppose it depends on who you count as Founding Fathers. Certainly some, such as John Quincey Adams were fiercely anti-slavery rightly seeing it as incompatible with the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson, the author of the Declaration, declared at the end of his life that "the day was not distant when [his countrymen] must hear and adopt the general emancipation of their slaves".

Jefferson, like Washington was a slave-owner who sincerely believed in abolition. Just not in his lifetime. They are of course open to obvious charges of hypocrisy, but I am happy to believe that they really did wrestle long and hard with their consciences, but found immediate emancipation too difficult to bring about.

Adams even went so far in his defence of the slave-owning Founding Fathers to say that the existence and continuation of slavery, even after Independence, was entirely the fault of the British, which I think is stretching the point a bit.

Yet along with these more morally tortured individuals there were Founding Fathers who had a very simple and straight-forward attitude to slavery: they were entirely in favour of it. "According to the testimony of Virginians James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and John Rutledge, it was the Founders from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia who most strongly favored slavery." [The Founding Fathers and Slavery, David Barton, 2003]

The interesting question remains why the British 'tyrants' abolished slavery so much earlier than the nation that broke away from them (although it is only fair to point out that Massachusetts abolished slavery as early as 1783, when the ink was barely dry on the Treaty of Paris).

The best explanation I can think of is that the Revolutionary War was in fact a civil war in which supporters of two competing political visions were to be found on both sides of the Atlantic (including American Tories loyal to King George and British whig and radical supporters of the rebelling colonists, like Charles Fox and John Wilkes). The same radical ideas were at work on either side of the ocean, but on one side they got rid of the king but kept their slaves, and on the other they got rid of their slaves, but kept their king.
on Sep 29, 2005

1. Which state had legalized it the latest? I wasn't aware slavery had to be legalized. I'm aware of it having to be illegalized in certain states.

No, in what states was slavery legal after the war?  There were only 2.

on Sep 29, 2005

2. Stars and Bars was the first. The second was the southern cross (not the constellation) in the canton on a white field. The third was exactly the same as the second, except for a red vertical bar on the right side.

Excellent!  Note none are the confederate Battle flag either.

3. Don't know.

It is debatable, but either Egypt or Rome would have been acceptable.  Both lasted for about 700 years.

4. Misleading question given that the proponents and perpetuators slavery in America were from the very states that seceded. If the Union under the Stars & Stripes was such a slavery-friendly land, why then did the states secede? Tariffs, right? That's what the Mason Dixon line and The Missouri Compromise represented right? Was secession an end to itself? If so, why was the secession from Virginia of West Virginia opposed by Confederate secessionists in Virginia?

Not Misleading at all.  Simple question.  Under which flag was it practiced the longest?  As for the rest of your answer, it is not on point and worthy of a discussion in and of itself at another time.

5. Slaves were approximately 33% of the 9 million population of the Confederacy in 1861.

You misread the question. Not how many were slaves, how many were enslaved.

 

on Sep 29, 2005

6. Don't know. See Response #4

(sorry for the broken response.  JU seems to have a mind of its own)

Again not misleading.  There is an actual answer.

As for your answer to #7, you missed again.  I did not ask when the 13th amendment was ratified, but when Slavery was officially ended in the US.  And it was December 18, 1865.  This relates to number 1, as the emancipation Proclaimation ended slavery in all states in rebellion.  WHile that really had no effect in 1863 when it was issued, it was put into force in April 1965 when the South Surrendered.

8. It's not on footing with the swastika.

Everyone has their opinion, and I respect most all of them.  Thank you for an honest answer and a very good response

on Sep 29, 2005

Don't get me wrong, Dr. Guy. I think the Confederate Battle Flag is being separated from its Civil War implications. There was and is more to the South than just slavery, or the legaacy of it. If the flag wavers have disavowed slavery, then what is the problem people have with the flag as representative of regional hertage? History is important, but it isn't everything. The contmporary aspects can't be overlooked. They must be stressed.

I will agree with all of that, and I will also go so far as to say a lot of the CSA flag wavers (the Battle Standard actually) are a bunch of bigots.  However as you so correctly point out, not all so.  Here in the south we have a very active group of people who only want to remember, fondly, the Antebellum South.  For most everyone, black and white alike, will agree that the post war south was not a time to remember with fondness as the victorious north, instead of offering a helping hand, sought to punish the south (Possibly the best thing that Lincoln would have done in his entire presidency was to ease that transition if he had lived).

But as you were so forthright and detailed with yoru explanation, I will tell you that the purpose of this Q&A was to point out that those who villify the Confederate States and its symbols are very misguided and have misplaced their anger and animosity.  Why?  Through ignorance mostly.

You correctly point out that the Constitution of the Confederacy maintained the institution of Slavery.  I doubt few would argue that.  However, the reason for the 13th Amendment was to amend the Constitution of the Unites States of America, since that constitution also institutionalized it.  The confederacy did not create a wrong, it just maintained it, as did the USA.

on Sep 29, 2005

Did you also note that when this was signed that the civil war was only 2 months from being "over"? Civil War 1861-1865 Lee surrendered in April 9th of 1865.

As we have seen from the Equal Rights Amendment, signing an Amendment does not make it law.  It has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states, and that did not happen until December 6, 1865, 8 months after the war was over.

on Sep 29, 2005

Since secession was not recognized (as there is no legal provision for it that I'm aware of), and with a Confederate surrender, there was no such thing as an independent CSA. What difference does it make that amendement was proposed before hostilities ceased?

It makes a great deal of difference.  For while the states were in Rebellion, the North continued to operate as if they were not a part of the country in the laws it passed and the elections.  SO the North could have proposed and passed this amendment long before the war was over.  It chose not to.  And that is fodder for a much longer debate as well.