Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
An explanation for some
Published on April 5, 2005 By Dr Guy In Current Events

Several people, on the death of Pope John Paul II, have expressed their respect for the man and his duties, but........

In almost all cases, they were very respectful, but they just had a very strong disagreement with the Pope on the subject of Birth Control.

As do I.

However, I have been a Catholic all my life, went through a crises of faith and had to find it again. In the process I learned alot about my birth faith so that I could be a good Catholic even when disagreeing with some of the teachings of the church. 

One of them is about Birth control.  But before I could stand up and say I disagree with my Church on that subject, I had to understand where they were coming from in their opposition to it.

Pope John Paul II opposed all forms of Birth control.  Not out of spite or wanting to manipulate people, but out of his one over riding principal that dictated all his other actions as well.  His supreme belief in the dignity and worth of every Human Life.  From that Belief, all his teachings and beliefs sprang.

I doubt that anyone would call Pope JPII a manipulative man, and yet he was in his own way, as we all are.  He opposed Birth control due to the fact that he beleived the act of sex was meant for the procreation of the human race.  And any attempt to stop that from happening was a cheapening of the dignity of the individual.

We can argue all day on how he could speak on a subject he had little or no experience with, but that would not add to the reason he opposed condoms.

I uderstand his reason, but I dont agree with it.  Yes, I find it extreme, but I also respect him for not compromising.  For if her were to compromise, that would have destroyed his moral authority to speak on the subject and made him a hypocrite. Much like most people are, myself included.

There is a nasty little secret that I believe everyone practices at one time or another.  It is called situational ethics.  We beleive in ABC, except in this one (or 2 or 3) cases.  That is situational ethics and it is a betrayal to our core beliefs and to ourselves.

Pope John Paul II never succumbed to the slippery slope of situational ethics.  And so that made some of his views extreme in a world that lives by them daily.

Sure, Condoms can help slow the spread of AIDS, but the only 100% effective way to stop it is through abstinance. Period.  No one argues with that.  So Pope John Paul II knew this as well, but since his first and foremost belief was in abstinance, why promote a less effective method that would only make his beleifs just a case of situational Ethics?

So when you think of the Pope, and disagree with his teachings on some subjects, dont vilify him.  Ultimately, his way was far safer than any other way.  His belief in the Dignity of every man (woman) meant that he believed that all could abstain. He was unwilling to trade one belief for a convenience that he knew we could avoid.

That is part of what made him great. Disagree with him, but dont vilify or hate him for what made him great.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 05, 2005
I think the problem a lot of people have is that they are generally incapable of disagreeing with someone's beliefs or positions without feeling they have to disagree with them as a person as well. It's like those who dislike someone because of what faith they belong to, or what political party they vote with. Some people need to learn to separate out beliefs and opinions from the person.

I don't care who you vote for, what you worship, just so long as you're a nice person that's all that matters to me. The Pope, The President, I don't care who you're talking about, everyone needs to learn to separate the people from the beliefs.
on Apr 05, 2005

I don't care who you vote for, what you worship, just so long as you're a nice person that's all that matters to me. The Pope, The President, I don't care who you're talking about, everyone needs to learn to separate the people from the beliefs.

Or to understand where those beliefs come from.  In this case, people looked at his opposition to Birth control without understanding where it came from, and so they got mad.  If they understood the root of his belief, I think they would have more tolerance for him even if they did not agree with him.

on Apr 05, 2005
Amen to that!
on Apr 05, 2005
I can understand the papal and Catholic stance on this to some extent.

Abstinence will certainly prevent all of the diseases that revolve around sexuality...but I think that there's something even more important...and that's MONOGAMY. I don't want to be abstinant my whole life. And no one expects me to. In fact, whenever I go to the doctor, I get looked at funny because I'm still a virgin (which, frankly, really pisses me off...like I can use the phrase "It's my body and I'll do what I want with it" if I'm screwing everything with a penis to justify that, but I can't use the phrase to justify my abstaining? Bite me, world!). But, lots of these diseases could be prevented if people, without taking 30 people for "test drives," thought about the person they might want to spend quite a bit of their life with, and just wait.

Frankly, I don't really feel sorry for people who acquire STD's. Because for 99% of people out there, that disease was a CHOICE. A choice to have unprotected sex, knowing all the risks. Nope. I don't feel bad for them one bit, and I think it's a pity that we spend so many billions of dollars of research trying to find a cure for diseases that are 100% preventable if people would just keep it in their pants.
on Apr 05, 2005
Frankly, I don't really feel sorry for people who acquire STD's. Because for 99% of people out there, that disease was a CHOICE. A choice to have unprotected sex, knowing all the risks. Nope. I don't feel bad for them one bit, and I think it's a pity that we spend so many billions of dollars of research trying to find a cure for diseases that are 100% preventable if people would just keep it in their pants.


you're very lucky to live in a culture where women have a choice...to an extent. not a country, but a culture. there are women in america for whom youd not feel sorry at serious risk--just as they are in many places around the planet--of contracting aids from their husbands and they don't have any CHOICE because they're obligated to be available.

abstinence, as a practical means of preventing std transmission, is about as effective as the rhythm method is a form of birth control.
on Apr 05, 2005

(which, frankly, really pisses me off...like I can use the phrase "It's my body and I'll do what I want with it" if I'm screwing everything with a penis to justify that, but I can't use the phrase to justify my abstaining? Bite me, world!).

Remind me never to piss you off!

But a very good response.  I agree, but I also know that it will never happen.  The sex genie is out of the bottle, and wont be going back in.

on Apr 05, 2005

abstinence, as a practical means of preventing std transmission, is about as effective as the rhythm method is a form of birth control.

You are wrong.  Abstinance is 100% effective.  What I think you meant to say was that abstinance will not be followed by a lot of the people.  However, every time it is tried, it does work.

on Apr 05, 2005
I think you're selling situational ethics short.

While humans' engaging in sex for reasons other than procreation may be purely selfish, there are other ethical concerns that must be dealt with on a situational basis. It would be nice if one set of ethics never ran into problems, but that is not the world we live in.
on Apr 05, 2005
I have an ambivalent stance regarding PJP2 and Birth Control. While I feel it is FAR preferable to abortion, I also think that we've become overly reliant on birth control, which often carries with it some potentially serious side effects, rather than common sense. To me, it would make more sense if he advocated barrier forms of birth control but not chemical forms, or something to that effect.

Having said that, however, there is actually a misunderstanding concerning the Catholic church and birth control. The Catholic church DOES approve of, and teach, often at the expense of the diocese, Natural Family Planning. This is NOT the infamous "rhythm method", but relies on the same observation of a woman's fertile and infertile phases as fertility specialists rely on for a woman to ACHIEVE pregnancy. While not 100% effective, when it is used correctly, it has the same 99% effective rate as pills, condoms, and other forms of birth control.

And the best part of it is, the only "cost" to the family is in time spent to educate themselves.
on Apr 05, 2005
I think you're selling situational ethics short.

While humans' engaging in sex for reasons other than procreation may be purely selfish, there are other ethical concerns that must be dealt with on a situational basis. It would be nice if one set of ethics never ran into problems, but that is not the world we live in.


I am not selling anything short. I was explaining Pope john Paul II's opposition to birth control, a teaching I personally do not agree with. However, knowing where the man was coming from, I respected his views on the subject.

So when you think of it, in the Pope's case, there was but one set of ethics. And they had to be scrutinized constantly for the real world, but he lived by only one set.
on Apr 05, 2005
Having said that, however, there is actually a misunderstanding concerning the Catholic church and birth control. The Catholic church DOES approve of, and teach, often at the expense of the diocese, Natural Family Planning. This is NOT the infamous "rhythm method", but relies on the same observation of a woman's fertile and infertile phases as fertility specialists rely on for a woman to ACHIEVE pregnancy. While not 100% effective, when it is used correctly, it has the same 99% effective rate as pills, condoms, and other forms of birth control.


Actually, that HAD been the teachings. But a few years ago (I think it was 99) Pope John Paul II came out and said that unless used with the right intent (and that was never clearly defined) that that method was as wrong as anyother form of birth control.

But again, while the church teaches what the Pope beleives, not all teachings are do or die type of teachings for a Catholic.
on Apr 05, 2005
I am not selling anything short. I was explaining Pope john Paul II's opposition to birth control, a teaching I personally do not agree with. However, knowing where the man was coming from, I respected his views on the subject.So when you think of it, in the Pope's case, there was but one set of ethics. And they had to be scrutinized constantly for the real world, but he lived by only one set.


I agree with you that he had one set of ethics which he didn't compromise. I did not disagree with you on that.

"There is a nasty little secret that I believe everyone practices at one time or another. It is called situational ethics."

My response was in regards to that statement, not any of the others.
on Apr 06, 2005
abstinence, as a practical means of preventing std transmission, is about as effective as the rhythm method is a form of birth control


I agree with dr. guy. You, kingbee, are wrong. Absitnence is ALWAYS 100% effective for preventing STD transmission and pregnancy. Always. It's surefire. I think it's a dirty rotten shame that kids that aren't out screwing...even adults like me for that reason...are seen as lesser human beings because we choose not engage in that activity. I think that parents...and educators who have to do parents' jobs by teaching this stuff in school...need to make sure that kids know that just because "everyone's doing it" doesn't mean that YOU have to. Kids need to know that they have a choice...and that not having sex has definite emotional and physical BENEFITS (Is a 14 year old girl's body really ready to have children? No. Mine on the other hand...I've got huge hips that developed over my teenage years so my body is ready...but it wasn't when I was 14). We give abstinence a shot in the dark and then skip right over to the birth control part of the curriculum because we figure that they're just gonna go out and do it anyway... I don't think we give kids enough credit.

BUT...kb...you did bring up something that I hadn't thought of before...about women in other countries who don't have the option of saying "no" that most people in the US and other western nations do. I guess my comment was more directed towards those of us in the West that have had decades of education on the subject of STD's. When I hear of people getting them...especially a colleage (duh...you've been in town for what...6 months and you've slept with about that same number of men in the time you've been here? And you don't know where you contracted this stuff?) who is a professional educator...DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Duh! Duh! Duh! I do NOT feel bad for you one bit.

Sorry.
on Apr 06, 2005
You are wrong


only if you've somehow been appointed arbiter of all fact. more likely, it's only an opinion you're welcome to entertain even though it puts you at risk of seeming to have overlooked the not-too-subtle qualification 'as a practical means of etc. etc.', because...

What I think you meant to say was that abstinance will not be followed by a lot of the people


what you think i meant to say is exactly what i said.
on Apr 06, 2005
I agree with dr. guy. You, kingbee, are wrong


see reply #14.
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