Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Or that Dog still Barks
Published on December 5, 2008 By Dr Guy In Politics

Recently, several members of JU have been engaged over the latest hot political topic in the US - The Auto Bailout.  Tis the season as they say, but not the Christmas one.  As it appears every company that now has to struggle is going hat in hand to congress for a bailout.  And the Auto industry is just the latest.

In the discussions that ensued, one of the popular themes was that the only reason the Auto industry was asking for the bail out, and congress - solidly in the democrat (read: American liberals) hands - is entertaining the idea was that going the regular route of Chapter 11 would negate all contracts - and the liberals could not stomach that!

Why you ask?  The whole purpose of Bankruptcy is to get a company time to restructure and come out (hopefully) leaner and meaner and to get rid of contracts written in plenty, but unaffordable in tight times.

Like the UAW contract.  No one has been arguing that the UAW was never needed, or that it was not at one time a good counterweight to large corporations.  But times have changed.  Laws have changed.  And the market has changed.  So much so that the Rust belt is no longer king of auto making in this country, and in areas not dominated by unions, auto makers and employees are making cars and good wages without the animosity and greed that is now associated with Detriot and the UAW.

But all this goes to the point of what a liberal is - and what a conservative is.  American style. 

For indeed, it is the liberals arguing, tooth and nail, for the bail out.  for one reason only. To prevent the elimination of the UAW contract.  A contract that is bloated by the incestous relationship that has developed between the UAW and the Big 3 Auto makers.  Yes, liberals are very conservative (in the dictionary sense) when it comes to unions.  Failing to see that while they were necessary and needed to get us to today, they have long outlived their usefulness and are now not a boon to the industries, but a hindrance.  The Big 3 are in Trouble because they cannot innovate and change.

They are locked into contracts and ways of doing things by a contract with an organization that no longer has their members best interest at heart, but their own retention of a power long ago changed from good to abusive.

And so the big 3 probably will get a bailout.  Probably will be allowed to continue to waste huge sums of money, and products because they are no longer able to grow and adapt. 

Lilke a body that has a sickness, the Auto industry (at least the Big 3) are in trouble.  And if they are not allowed to take the medicine that will cure them, it will only get worse.  Until the time when no bailout will work.  hastening the coming of that day will be the new government controls forced on them by this bailout.  Politicians dont know how to do much other than get elected.  Making cars is not their strong point.  And when they are running auto companies, all they will be offering are Yugos.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 08, 2008

Dr Guy

Well I mean all of us together
Those that had gave to charity.  Those that wanted only "me me me" gave to Obama.

 

O you couldnt have said it better. We had a local story here about this same exact thing here in the city of Milwaukee having to do with sick time paid.... MMEMEMEMEME! and never think outside of the box. I personally think that i hope the city becomes a hole when all the buessnesses move out of the city... we will see how far MEMEMEMEMEME gets em when they are sitting in the UI line

on Dec 08, 2008

The question is....are people listening out there? This is our money they're playing with. Remember that!

They only see it as someone else's.  That is the problem with federal handouts.  They dont realize it really is their money (through taxes or inflation).

You wont hear the uproar because it IS the dems that supported it.

It is so obvious, that it is no longer funny - except when you get a bot talking about Fox news.  And then cant even back up their claims.

If all 3 US automakers go down, it will be a severe black eye to all Americans and it will probably hurt our e3conomy in ways we can't yet imagine.

A big and improbably if.  What would happen if the government left it alone would be Chapter 11, and bye-bye to the union contracts.  That would lose a lot of votes for whoever votes against it from union members.  But they are not going to go away.  Fact is, they will outlive us all.  But not for long this way. Papering over their problems is not the way to solve the rot at the core.

on Dec 08, 2008

You profess to be a hardworking citizen whether unionized or not. but you don't seem to give a damn for those facing layoffs.

I have been laid off twice.  Going for a third time now.  Where are my boo hoos?  I dont want any, and I dont need any.  Unlike others, I am not a victim.  Face it, apparently being laid off is only bad when you are union.  No one is bailing me out (or has bailed out my previous 2 companies).

The UAW should not be the fall guy, though it deserves a long overdue kick in the ass for protecting ancient pensions as opposed to horrible layoffs in the hundreds of thousands over the years.

They are not the fall guy.  They are just the fellee.  It happens.  And they helped it in this case.  The Big 3 are not going bankrupt to spite the unions, they are going bankrupt because of them.  And that makes the unions a large contributing factor.

120k a year is up at the higher end of middle class.  A good 60k a year job is not going to kill these guys.

on Dec 08, 2008

And if the companies do go under, someone will buy out their remains and keep things going. Maybe someone more competent who knows how to manage a business.

WHat I have been saying all along.  Time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

While it is an interesting idea this will never pass because an uproar will begin that this benefits the rich when it's the poor that are struggling.

Of course it does!  They are the ones paying the taxes after all! (but then that is not to be stated as it is some kind of ist that is no longer PC).

we will see how far MEMEMEMEMEME gets em when they are sitting in the UI line

Dont worry - they will blame it on Bush.

on Dec 08, 2008

stevendedalus

I am a liberal opposed to the auto industry bailout. Just to let you know. Be well. Cowardice.

Yeah there will be some backlash at first but it will recover. You profess to be a hardworking citizen whether unionized or not. but you don't seem to give a damn for those facing layoffs.

Its not like the jobs are gonna get outsources to india or somethingTher's nothing to prevent the Big 3 from continuing their overseas plants.

 

your right I dont because they made thier own bed. How can I feel sorry for someone that did that to themselves. Union you have a voice. Its your job to make it heard. If you dont speak out than its your own damn fualt

on Dec 08, 2008

DR your one your second lay off too? I am on my second one this year also and it stinks.

 

Yeah I am sure they will blame bush for it too though I am sure that people wont realize that its a total liberial idea to do something like this. Its gonna kill small buessness and its also gonna take away the 1 weeks paid vacation that normal people get after one year because now the employers are gonna have to pay sick time off.... its so stupid if you ask me

on Dec 08, 2008

Dr Guy

You profess to be a hardworking citizen whether unionized or not. but you don't seem to give a damn for those facing layoffs.
I have been laid off twice.  Going for a third time now.  Where are my boo hoos?  I dont want any, and I dont need any.  Unlike others, I am not a victim.  Face it, apparently being laid off is only bad when you are union.  No one is bailing me out (or has bailed out my previous 2 companies).


The UAW should not be the fall guy, though it deserves a long overdue kick in the ass for protecting ancient pensions as opposed to horrible layoffs in the hundreds of thousands over the years.
They are not the fall guy.  They are just the fellee.  It happens.  And they helped it in this case.  The Big 3 are not going bankrupt to spite the unions, they are going bankrupt because of them.  And that makes the unions a large contributing factor.

120k a year is up at the higher end of middle class.  A good 60k a year job is not going to kill these guys.

 

I dont think they make 120k just to correct you... its including the other benifits in that lump sum like insurance ect ect. But I do agree its still way to much. Look at what kind of other pay you get at other manufacturing jobs even and these # are way outta line with what people do that do pretty much simular work.

on Dec 10, 2008

Unlike others, I am not a victim.
Ah, for the good old days of Duke Wayne!
120k a year is up at the higher end of middle class. A good 60k a year job is not going to kill these guys.
Unbelievably exaggerated.  

on Dec 10, 2008

You people dont seem to remember what it was like before Unions and "liberal protectionism."  I seem to recall sweatshops with chains on the doors, and people being fired because a turbine choped of their arms.  Thats right, I'm 140 years old!  

 

Living in Detroit myself  I can tell you that the adverage car maker does not make over 100,000 a year.  Show me that and I'll show you the worst economy in the country except maybe some places in the deep south. 

 

Unions and liberal rules didnt do in the car companies.  Nafta and the 25 years of reaganomics did.  And yes Clinton was a D.i.n.o.  We havent had a real liberal president since FDR. 

 

Just maybe Barack is our man...I can only hope...

on Dec 10, 2008

dont because they made thier own bed.

Yes they did.  Back around 2k, I was rolling in dough!  I could work 80 hours a week and get paid for it!  Why?  Y2K.  And my services were in demand.  Taht of course stopped.  SO I could have been a real snit and demanded that I keep my 6 figure salary!  Or I could accept reality and realize that my 6 figure salary was no longer justified and I had to accept less.

So I did.  Why cant the unions?  Their bed, they lie in it.

DR your one your second lay off too? I am on my second one this year also and it stinks.

Actually that was in 03.  But I did see it coming, so it was not too bad.  I got took about a 25% cut to find another job, but was making the same in 5 years (yes, just this year).

on Dec 10, 2008

But I do agree its still way to much.

I wont say it is too much - after all, when in demand, they earn it.  But they have got to start thinking like ants, and not grasshoppers.  The years of plenty do not last forever.

Ah, for the good old days of Duke Wayne!

Ya better buh-lieve it.

Unbelievably exaggerated.

Nope, Union Contract numbers.  Most people not in manufacturing learn that$60k a year is not bad.  And live comfortably on it.

Even with 4 Children!

on Dec 10, 2008

You people dont seem to remember what it was like before Unions and "liberal protectionism." I seem to recall sweatshops with chains on the doors, and people being fired because a turbine choped of their arms. Thats right, I'm 140 years old!

Yes, we do!  And thank you for demonstrating my point!  I defy anyone here, or on StevenDedalus' thread to see where anyone said that Unions were never any good!

But like the buggy whip, their time has passed.

You people are still trying to breath life into that buggy whip.

on Dec 10, 2008

Dr Guy

But I do agree its still way to much.
I wont say it is too much - after all, when in demand, they earn it.  But they have got to start thinking like ants, and not grasshoppers.  The years of plenty do not last forever.


Ah, for the good old days of Duke Wayne!
Ya better buh-lieve it.


Unbelievably exaggerated.
Nope, Union Contract numbers.  Most people not in manufacturing learn that$60k a year is not bad.  And live comfortably on it.

Even with 4 Children!

 

 

heck man I can do it on 25 ! Poeple live outside of thier means and have become so materialistic.

on Dec 11, 2008

anyone said that Unions were never any good!
Yes, I suppose, you regarded them highly when making buggy whips! But you and all of the statements deal with the past and have long left the burial ground.

heck man I can do it on 25 ! Poeple live outside of thier means and have become so materialistic
You're a menace to the legitimate need to retain a reasonably high standard of living.

on Dec 11, 2008

heck man I can do it on 25 ! Poeple live outside of thier means and have become so materialistic.

And then declare bankruptcy!  I will never forget the family on TV back in the early 80s (Reagan was president so the media was trying to portray how evil he was).  They spent out the wazoo!  Running up hundreds of thousands in credit card bills, and then simply declared bankruptcy!

When asked why?  The husband said "Because we deserve these things".  yea right.

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