Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

Right or wrong, and I will not take a stand here, this is why there needs to be a national concensus.  At the least.

It seems that a Virginia Gay Couple decided to go to Vermont to get "Unionized".  3 years later they split up.  The Virginia Courts (not the most conservative, but definitely not liberal) adjudicated the issue and awarded sole custody to the Biological mother.  The other fought and lost at every turn.  Until she went back to Vermont.  Where the Vermont courts are saying since they granted (Vermont, not the courts) the union, they have jurisdiction.  Even though, technically, neither was ever a citizen there.

So now we have a standoff.  The Biological mother can stay in Virginia and never worry about Vermont.  But should she travel outside the state, the other state may be more ameniable to the Vermont courts and grant its ruling.  In effect, one parent is trapped in a state.  The other begging to drag the child into a more friendly state.

And THAT is contrary to everything the US is built upon.  No 2 states can have opposing rulings on the same issue!  For then it deprives all citizens of the rights of the United States.

Agree with either V, but you cannot agree that this Dilemna is good.  And as much as I hate more laws or more amendments. It is time that we had one.  Even if it is that the civil unions in one state cannot trump the laws of another (the worst scenario).

This is not good.  And I cannot see how even the most ardent gay rights activist likes this ruling.  It does nothing for their cause.  Indeed, it promotes just the opposite.  It emboldens the opponents to say "See?  I told you so".  Indeed they did.

For the poo pooers that said this would never happen, the future does make liars out of you, does it not?

And at the center is a child.  Lest we forget.  I think the principals and the courts have forgotten that.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Aug 05, 2006
The trouble is, doc, I consider the federal legislature to be just as tyrannical, and frankly just as un-elected, as the courts


Almost, but not quite.

To me, the more responsibilities we shift from our local communities and states to the federal arena is just that much less real representative government we have.


I agree, but again, unless we have Civil War II, it is going to happen.

Worse, it's just that much more ability OTHER states have of imposing their will on us.


Again unfortunate and true.

All your points are good, and true. But the fact remains. It has happened. And we have 2 (well 3 including another Civil War) choices left. Congress or the courts.
on Aug 05, 2006
No, there's another choice. As you say above, the Vermont ruling isn't going to stick in your state. That's the way it should be. Why help create an environment where it will eventually be able to?
on Aug 06, 2006
No, there's another choice. As you say above, the Vermont ruling isn't going to stick in your state. That's the way it should be. Why help create an environment where it will eventually be able to?


Then what is the mother to do? can she travel to Maryland? What is Maryland going to do? Honor one or the other.

In essence she is trapped in her home state. As there is no guarantee on which state is going to hold jurisdiction on the visited state.

Sorry, that is unacceptable. Unless we seceed. We tried that once with the worst president (constitutional wise) of all times. It did not work. I doubt it will again.
on Aug 06, 2006
There's no dispute of jurisdiction when it comes to heterosexual marraiges. I could fly to Las Vegas, get married there though I am a resident of Michigan. In the event of a divorce/property/custody dispute, Nevada has no jurisdiction even though they issued the marraige license. This should be no different. There's no need for additional law here when there are existing ones in place.
on Aug 06, 2006
States must run into juristiction questions all the time on all kinds of things. How is it solved in other situations?
on Aug 07, 2006

There's no need for additional law here when there are existing ones in place.

That would be true if the courts had not decided to meddle.  But the Vermont Supreme court has gotten into the act, and that still leaves us now with 2 choices.  Allow the courts to dictate the laws (one or the other will be invalidated), or have our elected representatives write a law.  Either way, a new law is going to be written.  The only question is who is going to do it.

on Aug 07, 2006

How is it solved in other situations?

They can rule on matters within their borders.  But like Zoomba said, vermont should have butted out of this one.  If I am married in Florida, but live in Virginia, I dont go to florida for a divorce.  The women lived in Virginia, and now one has moved back.  As soon as she did, that moved the jurisdiction.  But apparently Vermont does not beleive in that principal.  And it makes you wonder how many other courts would not either.

on Aug 07, 2006
It's an issue that wouldn't be pressed by anyone outside of VT. If other states got into the act and started claiming random jurisdiction, it would go straight to the US Supreme court in a hurry. And I don't think they would side with VT. An amendment is NOT needed to enforce laws already on the books. The Supreme Court of VT can claim whatever it likes, but it's reach stops at its borders. Adding ammendments and further laws just makes the situation worse because it starts opening up more and more loopholes.
on Aug 07, 2006

If other states got into the act and started claiming random jurisdiction, it would go straight to the US Supreme court in a hurry. And I don't think they would side with VT.

I wish you were right, but I guess I am too cynical to believe otherwise.

on Aug 07, 2006
I don't understand why you believe that all states' laws have to agree, Doc. Don't you see that what you are doing isn't preserving your independence, but in reality shoving YOUR state's decision down the throat of Vermont? Why not let both states do their own thing in the spirit of Democracy instead of making people in Vermont do something they don't want to do?
on Aug 07, 2006
If other states got into the act and started claiming random jurisdiction, it would go straight to the US Supreme court in a hurry. And I don't think they would side with VT.

I wish you were right, but I guess I am too cynical to believe otherwise.


Other states wouldn't want to loose thier powers of jurisdiction either. I don't think they would want a case to go to the supreme court for fear that a ruling could come down supporting Vermont, and by extention, supporting the idea that some other state could trump their own jurisdiction.
on Aug 07, 2006
don't understand why you believe that all states' laws have to agree, Doc. Don't you see that what you are doing isn't preserving your independence, but in reality shoving YOUR state's decision down the throat of Vermont? Why not let both states do their own thing in the spirit of Democracy instead of making people in Vermont do something they don't want to do?


I dont believe that. Like in the matter of Child support and divorce, it is clear. You divorce in state X, and then you abide by those court rulings. Simple, and it has worked for 230 years.

But then comes this conflict. I am saying that it has already happened, not that I want it to. Now we have to go to a higher court. To adjudicate the difference. Appointed pencil necks, or elected ones.

It has happened. I did not wish it. It has. Now what do we do? It is no longer hypothetical. it is reality.
on Aug 07, 2006
Other states wouldn't want to loose thier powers of jurisdiction either. I don't think they would want a case to go to the supreme court for fear that a ruling could come down supporting Vermont, and by extention, supporting the idea that some other state could trump their own jurisdiction.


Ya think we can cede Vermont to Canada? After all, what has it done except waste space in congress and give us Howard Dean?
on Aug 08, 2006
Ya think we can cede Vermont to Canada?


They were talking about seceding from the union a little while back. Maybe we'll get lucky.
on Aug 08, 2006
Maybe we'll get lucky


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