Bush Wants Hostages' Killers Hunted Down

Published on June 28, 2006 By Dr Guy In Current Events

I changed the headlines, but honestly dont think I will get any bites. If Bush did say that, what would the liberals yell? Well, we already know what they would yell.

But Actually (if you click on the link), you will see that Putin said it. And where are the liberals now? The NY Times? Howard Dean? John Kerry? Babs Streisand?

Want to bet that none rise up in arms over Putin's statement? Want to bet a lot of liberals click on this link and then slink away?

Sorry, I dont do sucker bets so keep your money. But it is amusing. Call it a social experiement.

Comments

bakerstreet

on Jun 28, 2006

Not to be overly snide at a time of mourning for them, but if they had been interested in helping make Iraq a safe, democratic place instead of how much money they could make off of a genocidal maniac...

Dr Guy

on Jun 28, 2006

There is that. However, the pawns in a chess game do not dictate the game. It is tragic in any event. But I totally support Putin's words. The last time Bush said something like that, they called him a renegade cowboy.

Good Point

on Jun 28, 2006

Come on. Let's be real here. We're talking about the Russians. They Iraqis don't have it within themselves to be democratic. The Russians are not democratic, so they have little to offer in terms of trying to make the place democratic. These diplomats were killed by the Mujahideen Shura council, which is an umbrella coalition of radical Moslem terrorists. Al-Qaeda in Iraq is one group among several in this coalition:

Largest Sunni groups in Iraq (PDF File, adobe acrobat required)

This writer predicts the Russians will do to these people what the Soviet secret agents did to Hezbollah terrorists in Lebanon in the 1980's:

How Russia Will React to the Murder of its Diplomats

Additional resources on the Iraqi insurgency, from Evan Kohlmann's GlobalTerrorAlert.com:

Old Chart (Oct. 2005) of the Zarqawi Network in Iraq
Al Qaeda in Iraq, June 2006 Chart
A look at who's in the Iraqi insurgency
Counter-Terrorism Blog

bakerstreet

on Jun 28, 2006

"They Iraqis don't have it within themselves to be democratic. "

That's the same kind of elitist jargon that the British said about us a couple of hundred years ago. The peasants need a strong leader because they can't lead themselves. I don't buy it. The only thing they really lack that makes democracy more possible is non-biased education and access to a lot of different perspectives on current events.

The thing is, though, that without democracy, they can't have those. There's no way an overlord government is going to allow either. So while democracy is hard with brainwashed people, the only way to get them from beneath their brainwashing is by giving them a democratic government.

I never mentioned al Qaeda. The reason these militant organizations have power is because we and other nations turned out backs on them when they sought help. Iraqis had fought Iran for over a decade. If we hadn't turned out backs on them I doubt seriously that Iran would have the power there they have now.

ParaTed2k

on Jun 28, 2006

They Iraqis don't have it within themselves to be democratic.

When there are so many Americans who refuse to vote, but so many Iraqis went through Moslem cleansing rituals, in case they didn't live through the day, I quit listening to mindless "they don't have it in themselves" arguments.

Great social experiment!

Good Point

on Jun 29, 2006

Which would be odd, considering it was the Americans who had a standing tradition of democratic order, while the British were subject to monarchy. That's a weak argument. Iraqis are not Americans. Not by any shot.

The Iraqis have a whole tribal custom that has been in existence for millenia. Loyalty extends no further than the tribe. Atrocious corruption is the norm. The average Iraqi ends up marrying is first cousin or second cousin. Throw in the Sunni-Shiite divide, especially exacerbated since the waning days of the Ottoman Empire, and you have a recipe for disaster.

The only thing they really lack that makes democracy more possible is non-biased education and access to a lot of different perspectives on current events.

The thing is, though, that without democracy, they can't have those. There's no way an overlord government is going to allow either. So while democracy is hard with brainwashed people, the only way to get them from beneath their brainwashing is by giving them a democratic government.

But that suggests that our duty is to ensure that Iraq becomes a great nation, which it is not. It also rests on the foundation that people the world over, like the Iraqis, are "just like us" and want the same things. That is so false that I scoff at anyone who can even entertain the thought. They are Arabs. They are Moslems. They have their own desires that we can't realistic impose on them. What we have in Iraq now is chaos, brought on by the natural Iraqi tendencies--tribal loyalty and intense suspicion of outsiders. Oh, and I forgot the stringent honor code. None of this is helped by the role of Islam.

I never mentioned al Qaeda. The reason these militant organizations have power is because we and other nations turned out backs on them when they sought help. Iraqis had fought Iran for over a decade. If we hadn't turned out backs on them I doubt seriously that Iran would have the power there they have now.

I know you didn't, and I don't mean to suggest you did. I mentioned Al Qaeda in Iraq becaue they are the highest profile member of the coalition of terrorist groups and Salafists called the Mujahideen Shura Council, which was the group responsible for the savage killings of the Russian diplomats.

The reason why these groups have power is because they have a sizeable enough support base (or at least a population that looks the other way--implicit support), and scare and intimidate the hell out of those who don't support them. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the Iran-Iraq thing, though.

The purple thumbs around Iraq say you're wrong. How many Americans would vote, if they feared for their life.. .heck, most Americans didn't bother when it was free and easy. Many came up with such weak arguments as "the line was so long!".

When there are so many Americans who refuse to vote, but so many Iraqis went through Moslem cleansing rituals, in case they didn't live through the day, I quit listening to mindless "they don't have it in themselves" arguments.

You seem to believe that democracy is just holding elections: punching ballots and then counting them. Sure, at its base it is. But that's not what we're talking about here. Democracy, Western-Style, involves not assasinating political rivals. Five minutes after casting your ballot, you can't go attack a rival stronghold. You can't lockdown the country to hold an election in a healthy democracy. A healthy democracy doesn't divide itself on such sectarian lines.

Great social experiment!

Half a trillion dollars, 2500 dead, 20000 casualties for a social experiment? Please tell me I'm reading you wrong.

Dr Guy

on Jun 29, 2006

Come on. Let's be real here. We're talking about the Russians. They Iraqis don't have it within themselves to be democratic.

Neither the Russians or the Iraqis have a long history of democracy, but it has to start somewhere. Each is making attempts at it, albeit slow in our minds. But to condemn a whole people to the pits of despotism is wrong. They are making the attempt. And should be given credit for that much.

Dr Guy

on Jun 29, 2006

So while democracy is hard with brainwashed people, the only way to get them from beneath their brainwashing is by giving them a democratic government.

Well said and seconded.

Dr Guy

on Jun 29, 2006

Many came up with such weak arguments as "the line was so long!".

The lines were long in 04, but that did not stop me. If more people voted, the governments would set up more booths to expedite the act, but sadly too many just find any excuse not to vote.

Yet you are right about the Iraqis. There were not long lines that they could have used as an excuse. There was a real mortal fear.

Dr Guy

on Jun 29, 2006

The reason why these groups have power is because they have a sizeable enough support base (or at least a population that looks the other way--implicit support), and scare and intimidate the hell out of those who don't support them. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the Iran-Iraq thing, though.

Sorry, that dog dont swim. There is no question they have a support base, but I would not call it sizeable in relation to the population of Iraq. Hell, we have the Mafia that in the middle part of the last centrury did as much damaage as Al Qaeda is doing in Iraq, and I would not call their support base sizeable.

ParaTed2k

on Jun 29, 2006

And you seem to think that only white people of European descent can govern themselves without a central power to dictate to them. Do you think all the colonies were made up of like-minded people who put nation ahead of "tribal" interests? It was a miracle that the founding fathers got the people of different colonies to even talk to each other, much less agree to ratify a central government.

Remember, the original United States were "united" in only the most basic ideals. A central government was not to be trusted and the 2nd Amendment was included in the Bill of Rights to keep the people strong enough to form militias against the Federal Government if it became too tyranical.

The idea that democracy can only exist in a society where everyone thinks the same is rediculous. To say that Arabs can't handle democracy because their is too much infighting denies the realities of our own history.

Dr Guy

on Jun 29, 2006

I think the Civil war is a great example of how divided the country was during the early years. The US made it inspite of the problems of diversity of goals and thoughts.

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