Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on November 22, 2005 By Dr Guy In Religion

There is a very real misconception about how the Pope is Infallible.  Indeed, it is not only held by non-catholics, but many Catholics as well.  But the truth is that the Pope can only be Infallible when certain conditions are met.  And while the Church does not list how many times those conditions have been met, most theologians only agree on 2 instances.

The first was in 1854 When Pope Pius IX came out with the Immaculate Conception of Mary (another misconception for a later day).  The Second was in 1950 when Pope Pius XII spoke on the Assumption of Mary.

Some theologians believe there are more instances, and indeed there maybe.  But it was the Vatican Council I that came up with the official doctrine so any Infallible statements prior to that are argued upon, even though the doctrine has its roots in the Gospels and Paul's letters.  So while the Pope may have been speaking infallibly in the past, some dont recognize it until it became an official Teaching of the Church.

So it is evident that not everything the Pope says is infallible, and indeed from the sparsity of times it is even thought to have been done, most of the time the Pope is not infallible.

For the Pope to make an infallible statement, some conditions have to be met.  First he must be speaking ex cathedra, or for the whole Church. Second it cannot contradict any previous teachings of the Church. Third, he must basically state that he is resolving some point of Doctrine with absolute authority, and finally, he must be addressing the entire Church (the entire Church being all members of faith).

So while some Priests last year were railing against John Kerry and his pro-life position on abortion, no Pope has ever spoken Ex Cathedra on the subject, and therefore it is a teaching of the Church, not a doctrine of the Church.  And that in itself is a critical distinction.  For any Catholic can doubt a Teaching of the Church, and still remain a member in good standing.  But you cannot doubt a Doctrine of the Church and still remain a Catholic (Doubting in and Doubting out).

The Doctrine of Infallibility is a powerful one, and while the Church has been abusive in many of its practices in the past, that is one it has not abused.  And for Good reason.  For the whole concept behind Infallibility is that you are speaking with the Voice of God.  And even corrupt Popes did not want to cross Him!


Comments (Page 1)
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on Nov 22, 2005
I may just have to wait for Chapter III; it's a little hard to argue with that one. However if you posed it as "Infallible for who..."
on Nov 23, 2005

I may just have to wait for Chapter III; it's a little hard to argue with that one. However if you posed it as "Infallible for who..."

Not for me!

on Nov 26, 2005
Ok got a question Doc on this:

But it was the Vatican Council I that came up with the official doctrine so any Infallible statements prior to that are argued upon, even though the doctrine has its roots in the Gospels and Paul's letters.

I'm really familiar with Paul's letters and the gospels. And I was wondering......where about are you getting this? Cuz I don't see this anywhere.

Pllllllllllease don't give me Matt 16 ok?



on Nov 26, 2005
Try here:
Link

And here if you're up to voluminous research:
Link

For general information try here (remember we've been around a long time, so there is a lot to wade through):
Link

For illumination and discussion try this one, (one of my favorites):
Link

And the commission itself comes from Jn 14:26 and again in Acts 15:28. Remember we recognize the Apostolic Sucession beginning with Peter as the first "Sheppard of Rome" down to present day. In light of that we see Christ's Commission to Peter to be as valid today as when it was first given and passed down through the millenia to the current Bishop Of Rome.

I do have a question for you directly though. At what age and what level of involvement with the Roman Catholic Church did you leave? I feel it's relavent and germain to the discussion since you often times refer to yourself as having been RCC. Were you schooled in Catholic Catechism and a participant in the Church's Sacraments?
on Nov 26, 2005
I'm really familiar with Paul's letters and the gospels. And I was wondering......where about are you getting this? Cuz I don't see this anywhere.


There is a great deal of difference when we're talking Scripture and Tradition Of The Faith. There are many, many sources in the Tradition Of The Faith that lend understanding to how early Christians understood the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. Kind of a road map to how we got here from there. To try and interpret how something was meant and taught from so many centuries ago without taking it into account is arrogance and hypocrisy at it's extreme. It would be like having a defense attorney represent you with no law degree, no training, and without any knowledge of case law, defending a murder charge with a copy of Black's Law Library.
Which is why of course we have ordained Ministers and Priests whom study at Seminaries.
on Nov 26, 2005
Hi Nadeon

Well Jesus and Paul encouraged all to "search the scriptures." Here's a few of my favorites.

"Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path." Ps 119:105

"Thy word have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee." Ps 119:11

Blessed is the man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly nor stands in the eay of sinners nor sits in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord and in his law does he meditate day and night....Ps 1:1-2

"These words which I command you this day shall be in your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lay down and you get up. " Deut 6

And when Paul went to preach in Barea they would not believe him just because.....so they searched the scriptures for validation.
and as a result Luke writes about them in Acts 17:11 commending them:

"These were more noble than those in Thessaloncia in that they received the word of with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so.
All through scripture we are told to search them cuz it's life and in them we find Jesus.

Tradition is fine but not if it contradicts scripture and I'm afraid that lots of these man-made religions do just that. They take us away and do not bring us into the word which is where we need to be. I am sola scriptora and the ministers and priests are not to take the place of our own search for God. They can help shepherd us but in the end it's us and God..one on one. We will all stand before him and be accountable for what we did and did not do while here on earth.

I don't believe in mine own interpretation (means nothing). I believe the bible interprets itself. Peter talks about that in his epistle. All the answers are in there.....just gotta be willing to take the time with God and read and search for them.

The Apostles wrote down all that we need to know. The rest is where all the trouble comes in. That's why you have so much division....cuz they all take a little of this and a little of that and run with it and build a theology on it.

I have had other Catholics thank me for bringing them to the scriptures. They say I've given them a gift that can't be taken away. Now the question I never did ask them is why me? Why didn't they get this from the CC? My question to you is.... Have you ever checked out God's word to see if the CC is telling you the truth?

I was baptized and had my first communion in the CC. Left when I was about 10 but do remember it vividly. Went to Catholic instruction. My mother left the CC when she was told NOT to read the bible. We had statues all over the house. She was like the only one (with us kids) that went to Mass on New Years Day. It was empty...I do remember that. She had stumbled on a few housewives that were studying the scriptures and wanted what they had. The priest forbidded her to so she left.

It would be like having a defense attorney represent you with no law degree, no training, and without any knowledge of case law, defending a murder charge with a copy of Black's Law Library.


My defense attorney is Christ. He is judge, jury and defense attorney all wrapped up in one.

"And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knows this man (Jesus) letters having never learned? John 7:15

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled and they took knowledge of them that they had been with Jesus." Acts 4:13

God doesn't care about degrees, pillars, or popes. He cares about the heart. True wisdom is knowing God.
See going by your critera even Jesus wouldn't qualify forget about John and Peter. The men he chose to start the church were simple men, unlearned to give out a simple gospel....come to Jesus and be saved. Follow me!! That's it. Believe in the one that sent me....that's it. The problem is these religions are taking us further away from Christ not closer. It's not about religion but about relationship....that's whay the religions are going down the tubes and for many it's more about money...sad but true.

Jesus said this himself:

Well has Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites as it is written, This people honors me with their lips but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God you hold the tradition of men as the washing of pots and cups and many other such like things you do. Full well you reject the commandment of God that you may keep your own traditions. Mark 7



on Nov 26, 2005
Ok Doc........just remember you instigated this. Are you happy now? Now I'm in big trouble....right?



on Nov 26, 2005

Pllllllllllease don't give me Matt 16 ok?

HOw about these?

  • Jn 1:42; Mk 3:16 ("And to Simon he gave the name Peter", Cephas or Rock)
  • Mt 16:18 ("thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church"; cf. Mt 7:24-28, the house built on rock)
  • Jn 16:13 ("when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth.")
  • Jn 14:26 ("the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things")
  • Jn 21:15-17 ("Feed my lambs/sheep") (stated three times)
  • Lk 10:16 ("He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despiseth you, despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.")
  • 1 Tim 3:15 ("behave thyself in the house of God, which is ... the pillar and ground of the truth.")
  • 1 Jn 2:27 ("let the unction, which you have received from him, abide in you. And you have no need that any man teach you; but as his unction teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie. And as it hath taught you, abide in him.")
  • Ac 15:28 ("For it hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us, ...") (the Apostles speak with voice of Holy Ghost)
  • Mt 10:2 ("And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter,...") (Peter is first)
  • Mt 28:20 ("Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days...")
  • Ludwig Ott points out the many indications in Scripture that Peter was given a primary role with respect to the other Apostles: Mk 5:37, Mt 17:1, Mt 26:37, Lk 5:3, Mt 17:27, Lk 22:32, Lk 24:34, and 1 Cor 15:5 (Fund., Bk. IV, Pt. 2, Ch. 2, ยง5).

Here is the LInk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Google is my friend!

on Nov 26, 2005

Reply By: Nadeon

WOW!  I am impressed with your command of the religion!  I just came back 20 years ago (and then really started my education).

on Nov 26, 2005

Which is why of course we have ordained Ministers and Priests whom study at Seminaries.

SO they can teach us, but it is still their interpretation.  Interesting.  My Second Daughter's God father saud he converted to Catholocism for one reason.  NO matter which church you go to, you hear the same message.  I found that very profound.

on Nov 26, 2005

Ok Doc........just remember you instigated this. Are you happy now? Now I'm in big trouble....right?

Very happy!  As I said, my job is not to convert, but to educate  and discuss.  Now that you know the truth about my beliefs, you can debate and discuss them intelligently.  You will not convert me, but I dont mind you telling me of your beliefs.  You are a very religious person, and I respect that and you.

So go for it!  I do not mind being told my beliefs are not others.  That is why we have so many demoninations of a sect of religion called Christianity. Because it truly is a fit for all belief.

on Nov 26, 2005
OK I'll get back to you on the above scripture. Too late now. I'm actually a year and a half just studying John verse by verse. I have a Catholic lady in my study and she and I have no trouble because we are reading it together and using other scripture as needed to shed light on any given passage.

I don't consider myself religious per se....just a Christian that loves Jesus. It's not up to me to convert so don't worrry about that from me. Covert to what? I'm an equal opportunity religion basher (for lack of a better word). If you were Hindu or Muslim I would actually be still bringing you to scripture. It's the Holy Spirit's Job not mine. I believe the word of God is "quick and powerful and sharper than a two edged sword." And when Jesus comes back it says this "sword" is coming from His mouth...Rev 19. He's going to smite the nations with it it says.

So I'll be back......maybe tomorrow....good night-sleep tight.

My heart has been for some time to educate and bring bible literacy back to people that have no idea what they are missing. I had one lady in one of my studies look up at me and said..."I had no idea this is in here. I have to tell my family this." And she was in her late 40's.
on Nov 27, 2005
SO they can teach us, but it is still their interpretation.


Yes and no. When a body of religion, Christian or otherwise convenes a conclave or synod to decide which teachings are spiritual, and which are to be taught, and how they are to be taught, it is by consensus. Each faction/tribe/region, however you want to divide an area up provides a representative to debat and vote. It is by mutual agreement on behalf of those represented. The interpretation is the "official" interpretation accepted by the Church Universal to prevent error, schism and heresy. That is why the Church had the various councils, (Nicea, Latrian, Vatican I and II etc.). Does that prevent you from personal interpretation? No. But personal interpretation is not used fro teaching or preaching the Word.
I have a post coming shortly on that topic.
on Nov 27, 2005
KFC, please stop taking my replys out of context. Your defense of hurling your interpretation of scripture, as it suits you, is insulting at best, and offensive at worst. You are not the final word on how to interpret scripture. You are on a power trip. If you feel a call to preach get ye forthwith to a seminary or Bible college of your choice. Learn why wherefore and how, be examined and tested, and credentialled. Otherwise you are just so much wind blowing in a storm of cacaphony. Knowing what you believe is only half the equation. Knowing why is spiritual maturity.
on Nov 27, 2005

I don't consider myself religious per se

I meant religious as in very devout, not as in one who tries to convert all.  I think you do a very valuable service.  Teaching the bible.  Just so you dont go JW on us here!

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