Again NAFTA + puts that idea out to pasture. Either way don't expect kind words from Hugo.

But that is what "Free America" is!  Just not under his thumb!  Indeed, it is not under anyone's!  Some Americans hate it, some Canadians hate it and most Mexicans love it.  Why?  because the cheaper the labor, the easier to trade.  America and Canada have had to move on to more higher skilled exports (and for the most part seceded), using the cheap imports.  Does Chavez mean we should not trade with any nation that does not abide our going wages (a very Union and left idea here)?  If so, then that is again cutting off your nose to spite your face.

he is getting good at that.

So was Hitler. You want to call him a saviour for Germany, go right ahead. (Disclaimer: Hitler was only elected once - but that was all it took),

So Godwin's rule only applies to liberals?

And Chavez is like Hitler because he was elected and isn't out of office yet? And Bush, Paul Martin, Tony Blair, John Howard, Jacques Chirac, Vicente Fox, Ricardo Lagos, Angela Merkel, Lula, etc, etc, etc, are different how?

I'll keep this in mind for whenever I feel like calling Bush a Nazi. He was elected, Hitler was elected, Hitler is evil, therefore Bush is evil?

I could go on for hours, frankly, but it isn't going to matter. latour likes fascists in sheep's clothing. He consistantly praises men cut from the cloth of Bolivar. He loves Allende, Mohammad Mossadeq, etc. All socialists wrecking their nation and exerting dictatorial control, but they pretend to be socialists so the easily fooled like latour eats them up...

Had Allende been alive, there would have been elections in Chile in 1976. But there weren't for two main reasons: The legitimate, constitutional, democratically elected President (Allende) was dead, and Pinochet became dictator and pretty much wiped his ass with the constitution and Chilean democracy.

The new constitution was been approved with 71.78% of the vote and the coup was defeated due to a popular uprising about a day later.

Still, I think sometimes Chavez says things that can go a bit too far or make him look bad, like when he called Bush an asshole. This is just one of those things. It's not like Bush never said anything stupid.

"Still, I think sometimes Chavez says things that can go a bit too far or make him look bad, like when he called Bush an asshole."

The man makes dissent punishable by prison time, and the worst criticism you can come up with is saying things that go a bit too far? Just the other day he tossed out aid workers that were helping the poor natives in part of his country. Why? Because he thought they were CIA spies. He has accepted "security experts" from Cuba to help him, do you think you can really trust election results there?

No offense, latour, but damn, you aren't this blind.

most Mexicans love it

i don't know how or why you've come to that conclusion. mexican farmers can't afford to compete with the us' subsidzed agricorps. wiping out family farms in mexico means more mexicans jumping the border to find work here.
at the same time, china's doing its best to edge mexico outta its normal us markets for manufactured goods.

because the cheaper the labor, the easier to trade.

At first glance I would agree with you. But opening up closed grain markets in the americas would devastate them because of the current subsidization in agriculture. When most of the market is geared to selling food and then is undercut.... well you get the idea. The arguement is about food sovereignty. In all three countries NAFTA has undermined people’s food sovereignty by enshrining privileged treatment for predatory multinational agribusiness cartels over the rights of farmers and consumers. Mexico’s agricultural economy is in the midst of its worst crisis ever with 1.5 million small peasant farmers being forced from the land since the passage of NAFTA. The increased vertical integration of North American markets under NAFTA has further consolidated market power into the hands of agribusiness, favouring centralized agricultural-industrial production over decentralized farmer-peasant production. So in short, the low tech farmer always loses. The end result is a destabilized food supply in an agrarian-driven country. Canada can weather this storm, mexico mmmmmmm no so much. The developing americas? Hell no.

I admit I don't have the magic silver bullet to trade problems but the best defense against a subsidized market is to isolate oneself from it.

Also the document is very vague on whose policies get implemented on immigration and border security. Right now we can assume the american model as the default (though I know Canadian immigration will contest this)

So Godwin's rule only applies to liberals? And Chavez is like Hitler because he was elected and isn't out of office yet? And Bush, Paul Martin, Tony Blair, John Howard, Jacques Chirac, Vicente Fox, Ricardo Lagos, Angela Merkel, Lula, etc, etc, etc, are different how?

I never said that.  He merely said that Chavez was elected by huge margins.  I was pointing out that a lot of people have been so elected, and one would not call them benevolent rulers.  You missed the point again.

I'll keep this in mind for whenever I feel like calling Bush a Nazi. He was elected, Hitler was elected, Hitler is evil, therefore Bush is evil?

You might try following the thread and what is written instead of inserting your own words into what is not written.  You are very bad about that.

The man makes dissent punishable by prison time, and the worst criticism you can come up with is saying things that go a bit too far? Just the other day he tossed out aid workers that were helping the poor natives in part of his country. Why?

Because he is a kook!  And while he is not a despot YET, he is on the road to it.  His paranoia is pushing him there.

i don't know how or why you've come to that conclusion. mexican farmers can't afford to compete with the us' subsidzed agricorps. wiping out family farms in mexico means more mexicans jumping the border to find work here. at the same time, china's doing its best to edge mexico outta its normal us markets for manufactured goods.

Another useless diatribe.  Now try backing that up with some facts.

Kingbee fact: Nafta caused illegal immigration. Yea right!

The arguement is about food sovereignty. In all three countries NAFTA has undermined people’s food sovereignty by enshrining privileged treatment for predatory multinational agribusiness cartels over the rights of farmers and consumers. Mexico’s agricultural economy is in the midst of its worst crisis ever with 1.5 million small peasant farmers being forced from the land since the passage of NAFTA.

SO you would keep Mexico poor and agrarian just to suit your purpose? While thousands of manufacturing jobs are flowing to Mexico, and improving their standard of living, but to keep them backwards in the 19th century to support an inefficient system is more important?

That is very jingoistic to suggest we must keep the country poor so that some farmers do not lose their jobs.  Guess what?  Millions of farmers and buggy whipe makers have lost their job in the last 150 years in America.  WHy?  Because we found more efficient ways to produce the goods.  Then countries like Mexico came and took those jobs away.  Did the US crumble?  NO they went higher tech!  And guess what?  Our Standard of living went up as well, and all those out of work farmers?  They got a job a the mills and then in the service industries.

Nafta caused illegal immigration. Yea right!

slanderer did a damn fine job of providing facts about the harm nafta has done to mexico's farmers.

when mexican farmers can't afford to pay workers to help because their corn, tomatoes, etc. crops can't be sold atta profit, where do you think those farmers and workers wind up going to earn a living?

all those out of work farmers? They got a job a the mills and then in the service industries.

which mexican mills and service industries do you imagine exist? while several auto manufacturers have built plants in mexico, they provide (at best) thousands of jobs...not nearly enough to employ those who've lost their farms. on top of which, guess which type of vehicle they're tooled up to make? hint: it aint hybrids.

did you miss the part about china underpricing mexican manufacturers?

slanderer did a damn fine job of providing facts about the harm nafta has done to mexico's farmers.

No, Slanderer provided a jingoistic reason for keeping Mexico poor.

did you miss the part about china underpricing mexican manufacturers?

They can underprice them all they want, but there are 2 big deterants, which you miss.  Transportation and Free Trade.  Fox is no one's lackey, and to suggest he is trying to get in good with the US at the expense of his own people is shere stupidity and on par with Chavez' rantings.

2 big deterants, which you miss. Transportation and Free Trade.

transporting what? bloomberg published the following on 11/9.


`This economy is not robust,'' Gray Newman, chief Latin American economist at Morgan Stanley, said in a telephone interview from New York before the report was released. ``The industrial data is not driving Mexico's economy right now, that's clear.''

Mexican central bankers will lower the benchmark lending rate for a fourth straight month at a policy meeting on Nov. 25 in a bid to bolster domestic demand and offset the slump in exports, Newman said. He forecast in a Nov. 6 report that the central bank will lower the rate a quarter-percentage point to 8.75 percent at that meeting.

The central bank, which hasn't made rate adjustments at its mid-monthly meeting once this year, left the overnight rate unchanged at a meeting today.

China

Domestic consumption has taken over as the main driver of the country's economic growth as exports to the U.S. -- the buyer of 85 percent of Mexico's overseas sales -- have slowed. Hurricanes Katrina and Rita curbed Mexican oil exports while Chinese manufacturers have continued to take market share from Mexican companies in the U.S.

China's exports to the U.S. in the first nine months of this year surged 26 percent to $176 billion while Mexico's exports to the U.S. rose 8 percent to $124 billion. Mexico's export growth is down from 12.6 percent in the year-earlier period.

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita disabled oil rigs and refineries along the Gulf Coast, sparking a 1.3 percent decline in U.S. industrial output in September, the biggest drop in 23 years. The damage to U.S. refineries caused Mexican crude production to drop 1.9 percent in the month from a year ago.

The drop in oil offset a 7 percent gain in September production of automobiles, which make up about a fifth of manufacturing output. Mexico produced 147,209 vehicles in September as manufactures such as Volkswagen AG and Ford Motor Co. launched new models.

`Better Results'

The rebound in auto production, which also jumped 17 percent in October from a year ago, indicates industrial production may begin to pick up in the fourth quarter, said Mario Correa, an economist with Bank of Nova Scotia's unit in Mexico City.

``In the last quarter we are going to see better results in the industrial sector,'' Correa said.

Slower-than-expected industrial production and damage from Hurricanes Wilma and Stan in Mexico's southern states led the central bank to lower its 2005 economic growth forecast to between 2.75 percent and 3.25 percent last month, the second reduction of the year. The economy expanded 4.4 percent in 2004, the fastest pace in four years.

``The deceleration in the industrial sector has been significant, especially in the manufacturing sector,'' Bank of Mexico chief economist Manuel Ramos said during an Oct. 31 presentation in Mexico City. ``This is a reflection of our loss of competitiveness'' in export markets.
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