Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Irrelevant?
Published on June 6, 2005 By Dr Guy In Politics

I know you can google it, but to be fair, guess who said the following first before Googling it:

I draw the line at Amnesty's use of the word "gulag" to describe these policies, as well as the implication that the United States has somehow become the modern equivalent of Stalin's Soviet Union. Guantanamo Bay was a flawed response to an unprecedented situation: A war in which the enemy were not soldiers, but stateless terrorists. Early abuses there have been investigated and discussed by the FBI, the press and, to a still limited extent, the military. There is evidence that the situation is changing.

The Soviet gulag, by contrast, was a massive forced labor complex consisting of thousands of concentration camps and hundreds of exile villages. More than 18 million prisoners, and some 6 million exiles pass through the system during Stalin's lifetime, although their fate was never publicly acknowledged during his lifetime, and only limited information was ever published by Soviet authorities after his death. Soviet camps and political prisons were in existence from the time of the revolution to the time of Gorbachev, more than eighty years. They were a major part of the Soviet economy, and helped create the atmosphere of generalized terror and fear of state authorities which persists in Russia today.

Their true modern equivalent is not Guantanamo Bay, but the prisons of Cuba, where Amnesty itself says a new generation of prisoners of conscience reside; or the labor camps of North Korea, which were set up on Stalinist lines; or China's laogai , the true size of which isn't even known; or, until recently, the prisons of Saddam Hussein's Iraq.

Hint it is not Dick Chenney, George W Bush or Don Rumsfeld.  And they are correct!


Comments (Page 2)
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on Jun 07, 2005

Director Schulz: Can you say "libel" and "slander"??? Or are unfounded accusations of torture and "running a gulag" merely your way of being "non partisan"?

But Your Honor, we are non-profit!  We do good (sometimes) and help the downtrodden (sometimes) so we should be immune from the normal laws of society!

on Jun 07, 2005
My, don't you all have your panties in a bunch?

I saw the original newscast in which the Amnesty spokeswoman referred to Guantanamo as a Gulag. The comment was made by Irene Khan, Secretary General. Her exact words are "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time." (Link)

She did not say that Guantanamo is the modern equivalent of any of the Gulags of Stalin, Mao, or any other dictator. She did not say that the regime carried on there is in any way equivalent to that of those dictators, or any other dictators.

What she sid is "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time." Which means that the same impulse toward total control is at work in the thinking behind the Guantanamo detention center as was apparent, in far more extreme forms, in the Gulags of Russia, China, and Iraq.

In that sense, and in that sense alone, I agree with her. Just like the Gulags, Guantanamo is a place of fictions, where fighters who were not soldiers are not held as prisoners but as detainees, where law does not apply but only the will of the State. That the will of this particular State is largely humane and that in the main prisoners there appear to be treated reasonably well, is beside the point.

The inherent tendency of every State is to dominate. In mainland America that will is curtailed and controlled by the Constitution, and the checks and balances of power instituted here. But in Guantanamo that will is made plainly manifest. And it was to this that Irene Khan was pointing, not to some childish and entirely untenable equivalence between Guantanamo and the prison camps of China and Russia.

In essence, you are arguing over something that was not said, and taking positions which have no basis in reality (because the event they 'debate' did not occur) but only in your own ignorance and prejudice.

But hey, this is JU. What's new?
on Jun 07, 2005
Pull your own panties out (and your head while your at it).

"Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time."


The word "Gulag" was specifically used to elicit a thought in the minds of the reader. She knew exactly what image she was trying to convey.

Your apologist statement would be like saying, "Me calling you Hitler wasn't to imply that you are a hate-filled, small minded, Jews killer, only that you have a funny looking mustache.
on Jun 07, 2005
Your apologist statement would be like saying, "Me calling you Hitler wasn't to imply that you are a hate-filled, small minded, Jews killer, only that you have a funny looking mustache.


Oh GOd I love this one ted,, stop yer killin me...
on Jun 07, 2005

My, don't you all have your panties in a bunch?

I saw the original newscast in which the Amnesty spokeswoman referred to Guantanamo as a Gulag. The comment was made by Irene Khan, Secretary General. Her exact words are "Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time." (Link)

She did not say that Guantanamo is the modern equivalent of any of the Gulags of Stalin, Mao, or any other dictator. She did not say that the regime carried on there is in any way equivalent to that of those dictators, or any other dictators.

my dont we have our panties in a bunch.  try reading the article before commenting.  i asked for the author of the quote.  do you have a guess?

I have commented on comments, but note my question still stands,

so please post on topic.

btw, if i called you a nazi of our time, would that be any less stinging?  qualifying an absolute evil with a lame time qualifier is just monkey shines.  and a feeble attempt at cyaing.

on Jun 07, 2005

The word "Gulag" was specifically used to elicit a thought in the minds of the reader. She knew exactly what image she was trying to convey.

Exactly!

on Jun 07, 2005

Oh GOd I love this one ted,, stop yer killin me...

Indubitably!

on Jun 08, 2005

Heh, Dr G, did you read Emperors response before replying to it? The answer quoted above was in the third sentence.

She made the (she?) statement about the Gulag of our time (which has been parrotted by AI or she parroted them).  But that was not who make the statement in the highlighted article.  It is not really a statement but part of a column written by a certain person who is not right wing at all.

on Jun 08, 2005
Your apologist statement would be like saying, "Me calling you Hitler wasn't to imply that you are a hate-filled, small minded, Jews killer, only that you have a funny looking mustache


In my opinion, Salvador Dali's mustache was a lot funnier looking.
on Jun 08, 2005

In my opinion, Salvador Dali's mustache was a lot funnier looking.

I like Groucho Marx's best.

on Jun 08, 2005

And Emp is a he, definitely! He's my Husband!

I know that.  The She? was in reference to Irene Khan.

on Jun 08, 2005
lets get real here ... Bush stating that Amnesty Internationals statements were "absurd" (including some other
nonsense about "disASSEMBLING" terrorists) was a complete joke.

During the run-up to the war this evil administration consistently pointed to Amnesty Internationals condemnation
of Saddams government.

So whats wrong when Amnesty International applies the same standards to us?
HYPOCRISY at its very best (with Bush and co) ... so much so it doesnt shock me anymore. Thats the sad part.
on Jun 08, 2005

Of all the things I've lost in life, I miss my mind the most.

You still got it.  I just was not clear!  Sorry about that.

on Jun 08, 2005

So whats wrong when Amnesty International applies the same standards to us?
HYPOCRISY at its very best (with Bush and co) ... so much so it doesnt shock me anymore. Thats the sad part.

Please post links to where Amnesty International was comparing Saddam to Hitler.  And not from some lame third party as they have their own web site.

And for the first and last and only time, answer the question of the article, or be gone.

on Jun 08, 2005
So whats wrong when Amnesty International applies the same standards to us?


They are not applying the same standards, that's the problem. As guy said, when has AI implied people like Saddam were as a bad as Hitler or the Soviet Union? Of all of the countries in the world who really abuse people, who really torture people, they say the U.S. is the leader.
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