A 15 year old guy/gal who starts to learn the trade of a carpenter or any other vocation has to go to vocational school as well as part of his education where he has regular subjects like math and english but also more specific subjects to the trade he/she is learning. It is a special school for people who learn a trade, but it isn't the same as a vo tech school in the US because they are only for students who are in an apprenticeship.

The German school system is totally complicated - diagramm on wikipedia

To my knowledge there aren't vo-tech oriented Gymnasiums at all because a Gymnasium is academically oriented to prepare students for University. Vo-tech oriented school is the Hauptschule, the one where you are done after 9th grade.

I don't know about the legal situation in Germany to be honest, but I would guess that you're about right. Employers place importance on qualifications, they want skilled workers after all.

Incidentally, that is exactly what PISA is all about - the more educated young people a nation has the better for their economy because the economy needs skilled workers. How important is PISA in the american public? Here it is a huge thing.

every home schooled child I know is head and shoulders in their studies over the alternative in many areas including discipline and work ethic.  That's the reason the colleges are now taking these kids so readily.   I homeschooled one of my boys for a short period of time and watched his grades skyrocket as a result of it.  Made me a believer.  

Remember alot of the spelling bee and geography bee champions and participants and such have been homeschooled kids. 

In fact, while my kids were public schooled, I did a whole lot of extra activity with them including some in the summer to get them ready for the upcoming school year.  Today all three are constantly getting commendations by their perspective employers saying they don't see this type of work ethic in young people anymore.   I do not have a college education.

and who says teachers are?  Who knows the kids better than the parents?  

 Some are good; some are not.  Same with parents.  But I still think it should be a parent's right to educate their children not the government's.   I know alot of teachers personally and close up and I can't get over the fact of how disorganized they are or the lack of common sense many of them have. 

 

 

 

I think compulsory education in Germany stems from a time where education was really viewed as a unnecessary luxury by alot of people, especially in rural areas, and especially so in catholic rural regions. If children are in school they can't work - so many weren't so keen on sending their kids to school at all. Teaching them at home was never the issue..

The debate today about wether homeschooling is good or not is a very different one. For many kids, especially if they don't have a healthy family at home that takes an interest in their education, compulsory education ensures that they recieve at least a minimum of education. I wouldn't classify that as government controll but I suppose the borders of where the state should step in and where the state oversteps are not always the same so it is always a difficult topic.

What annoyed me with that family that got political asylum is that they weren't persecuted in the same manner as many others who actively fight politically against opressive and dangerous regimes and risk their lives doing so but that is what their story implies.

The best part of being a Master Carpenter is you get to wear the cool hat!  East is East...etc, etc.  We can not compare German school systems with the US system because you can't compare apples and oranges.  We have different life views and history and perspectives.  As far as the home schooling goes, KFC hit it on the head...some parents can't teach their kids to go to school let alone be schooled.  Some teachers can't find their butts with both hands and a flashlight.  But the obverse is also true.  So what?  Some kids with great teachers don't learn anything and some kids with great parents don't either.  You just can't make a blanket statement about home schooling any more than you can about public schools.  But the issue shouldn't be qualification of the parents, but  THE RIGHT of parents to make that choice.  Until and unless we have a genuine standard of quality in public education, the parents not only should have that right but that obligation.

So it is more similar than I thought.  Still, it is also a solution to the drop out problem.  Since the student can legally leave after the 9th grade, they are technically not a drop out.  But as you indicate, they don't have many options.  Is there a way for those who do quit after the 9th grade to "drop back in"?  In other words, get a trade or education past the 9th grade later in life after they have realized they made a mistake?

Now that is complicated!  But I can understand the value in it.  At one point I was tasked with creating a bonus plan for store managers.  It was to be fair, and accurate.  But also simple.  The rules were self defeating.  I could make it fair and accurate, but then it would not be simple.  But simple won out as that was the mandate because these people who were tasked with running multi-million dollar stores could not normalize 2 equations.

That is how American education is.  Simple.  I guess while we stress education, we don't expect it from our professionals.  I know that when I get a new device or gadget, if I cannot figure it out without opening the manual, I know it will never sell here.  I also heard that the reason Americans don't have some of the best Nokia phones is that we never read the manual.  I believe it.

 

If you ever tried it, the reason would become obvious right away.  And I do not fault the schools really because of the way they are designed.  But the reason is because of how little they learn in class every day!  My son was finished his algebra class in about a month!  In school. of course, it would have taken him 4 months.

I think that is how education became a state mandate in most western countries. The perception it was for the rich, and the masses wanted it.  And I can understand setting up a system of access to education.  After all, you never know where another Einstein or Hawkings is going to come from.  But there is a deffinite disconnect now between providing a nurturing environment for exceptional students, and the concentration camp mentality that has become state supported education.  Unfortunately, the education unions have such a stranglehold on it (at least in America) that I do not think real reforms or innovations are possible.

To give you an example.  Where I live, special needs children are mandated by law to get the help they require.  The schools have no say in the matter, and there are attorneys that specialize in that litigation.  However exceptional students are ignored, and there is nothing a parent can do about it (except pay for private schooling).  They can be stuck in a muddling class that does not challenge them, and left to rot.  I know.  I had 2 of the latter and one of the former.  And did we make sure our special needs (dyslexia) child was taken care of?  You bet we did!  But there was nothing we could do to get them to challenge our sons who were basically bored.

I think it is mostly what you say - the right.  But I think there should be a standard set for home schooling (unfortunately it would be administered by the institution that failed them in the first place - public education).  After all, we don't want a situation where a parent denies their child an education for whatever reason.  If they want to home school, that is fine.  But make sure it is happening, and not some way to get the kid to work during school hours or even worse, do nothing.

Yep!

Not really like that. Education was seen as a positive thing very early on. In fact, that is how universities developed in the first place. The catholic church was a big political power in the 12th century and they realized that they needed qualified people who were studied in churchlaw etc. The first universities were in Bologna and Paris ard the year 1200, and they were supported by royal rulers for the same reason. Educated people had been in the interest of the ruling powers. It wasn't restricted to priviledged social classes either as there were scholarships for poor back then as well. Monestaries ran schools as well for the local populace. Bottom line, before democracy came along in the contemporary form, the powers that were supported the education of the masses because they needed people in their administration,as clerks, lawyers, diplomats etc. It had been in their very own interest.

also, Martin Luther stiulated that christian schools for boys and girls should be established in the 16th century. Since he was a protestant, protestant ruled regions like Prussia took it more to heart than catholic regions, where compulsory education took a long time to take hold.

In southern germany, Ravensburg used to have the largest childrens market where local  farmers bought kids as servants to work for them. Those children came across the alps on foot from tirole and other parts of austria. The local german kids had to go to school and couldn't work. That practice lasted till the end of the 19th century/early 20th century. The children worked just for food and a sack of straw and were hardly ever treated decently, but it was still better than what they had at home. Poverty among mountain farmers was huge.

Well said! 

Yes, and that was the eye opener for me.  How little work they actually did in school.  A homeschooled child is done in 2-3 hours a day compared to the long days the rest of them put in.  The more kids, the more distractions.  That and babysitting tactics like playing games and Hollywood movies (which got me steamed) come into play. 

I've seen this happen alot too.  I know one girl who had severe CP and could really do nothing but sit in a wheelchair.  Even with that she had to be strapped in because she'd fall out otherwise.  She could not communicate at all nor do any simple bodily functions on her own but she went to school everyday.  It was a break for her mom who had to do everything for her.  I couldn't help but question the validity of it all. 

I should have added - as democracy took hold.  The church wanted educated people - but only the ones they educated (and so controlled).  But democracy showed people that anyone could be successful (it did not require a title), but it did require education - which the titled had, and the masses did not.

I was unaware of teh Ravensburg thing.  Now that was clever (diabolical, but clever).

The distractions, the fact the teacher has 20-30 pupils instead of 1.  They all add up to longer time in school and less learning.  It is one reason I do not like taking training classes and instead prefer to learn on my own.  I did take one class where I was the only pupil (the instructor said they probably did not cancel it because they had to pay his salary anyway).  We were done in 3 1/2 days instead of 5.

I have seen that as well.  And seen some of the teachers involved with those type of students.  For the most part, it does take a special person to know that they try day in and day out with little hope for success, and they were probably some of the best teachers I know.  But the child was not really learning.  The parent was getting a break.

Those kids were between 6,7 and 14 years old, boys and girls. Can you imagine that they crossed a wild and dangerous mountainrange without proper clothes, shoes or provisions. I forgot to mention that their parents were paid for the kids and they needed that money desperately, so you could say it was a form of slavery.

It still happens today in some countries.  Specifically there are stories like that out of SE Asia, and then others like SubSaharan Africa where it may be a relative or neighbor that does the same thing - sells the child into slavery.