The Sins of the Father

Published on July 17, 2007 By Dr Guy In Religion

One of our esteemed members decided to post an article concerning a religion where he stated:

I should comment that I am pretty much against the Catholic Church

Some of the reasons he stated are historical, if somewhat prejudicial, and are ones that the Church in the modern era has had to deal with in their quest to return to its roots - that of being a faith based, and not a political based organization. And some are an attempt to bestow upon an fallible organization a measure of perfection that does not exist in this world. And still others are a gross mis-interpretation of a teaching that many do not understand, yet continue to decry and denounce in their ignorance.

Let us look at these three different aspects of these accusations.

The first is easy enough to identify. They deal with Historical facts. The inquisition, the heresy of Galileo, and the Crusades. All of these are historical facts, that are undeniable. And to deny them would be akin to denying the holocaust. But they are historical. The implication in the linked article is that since these were done in the name of the Church, then all descendants must bear the shame of those forefathers. That those descendants must renounce their faith, because the Church (not the faith) is imperfect and has done evil. They are guilty, because their ancestors are guilty. And not even necessarily their ancestors, but the acquaintances of some of their ancestors.

It matters not that the descendants have apologized for those deeds. It matters not that the descendants have repudiated the deeds. It matters only that those deeds were committed by the fathers, and thus the sins must be visited upon the children.

Now we come to the point where this faith based organization must know not only all that has been, but all that will be. In 1933, the Church signed a concordat with a sovereign nation stating they would get out of Politics. Something they had been in since Constantine back during the Roman Empire. Something they were never meant to be. And something they should never have been. And yet, into the 20th century, they were still involved with the remnants of the Holy Roman Empire. So they got out. By signing an agreement with the government of Germany. At the time, a democratically elected government whose primary concerns were not with ruling the world (that would come later), but in getting the country out of the worst depression they had ever seen.

While this was a mistake, at the time, no one knew the evil that was to occur under the new leadership of Germany. But we are to believe, again, that this is a heinous crime. And the crime was in not being omniscient. They should have known that the evil was to come, and never signed the agreement, and that they did sign it before the evil was perpetrated upon the world, is irrelevant. For they must be omniscient. Because people say they are.

And because they signed this agreement, then all the works of the Catholics throughout Europe, those who sacrificed their lives for the persecuted, was just a dog and pony show. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. hey! They must have been pretending.

Finally we come to modern day deeds. Yes, what WE do today WE are responsible for. At least in most circles. But what did the Church do in the current day? There are 2 charges.

One: The participation in the genocide in Rwanda by priests and nuns,

Two: Hundreds of years (no kidding or exaggeration) of tacitly permitting the sexual abuse of parishioners, specifically including children, by priests

That is right. The church and all 1.1 billion members participated in the genocide in Rwanda. And not another soul in the world did so. Nope, none of the other 5 billion people participated, just the 1 billion Catholics. And how did they participate? How many people were killed by Catholics? Well, that gets kind of murky, since even the author does not indicate that a single Catholic raised up arms against the Hutus and Tutsis. NO, the only allegation is that they did nothing. But the other 5 billion people sure did a lot, right? They sure stopped the massacre from happening! I remember well, the brigades of Americans (non-catholic of course), Israelis, English, French, and Germans marching in there to stop this slaughter. I remember it very well. Maybe you do as well?

But not the Catholics. Not a single Catholic sacrificed their lives for that massacre.

And the pedophilia? Yep! A crime that did not exist prior to it being discovered in the church, and what is even better, would not exist were it not for the church. And its 1 billion members! That is right! You heard it here first! The Church, and its 1 billion members are all pedophiles, or so we are to believe. Because only Catholics are pedophiles, and they must all be because we have found some priests that are.

Forget those men behind the curtain: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html

Forget the hundreds of instances where headlines have blared that "This teacher and that teacher" is convicted of it (they must all be Catholics too). Forget all the felons rotting in jail (they are all Catholics too). Just concentrate on the 13,000 charges (not all proven yet - except the fact they are Catholics) in the last 50 odd years against those evil Catholics. Do away with those Catholics, and problem solved! You do not need to worry about any one else!

No way is it possible that perhaps those inclined to pedophilia are attracted to occupations that put them in contact with children. No, all those teachers are Catholics, all those Felons are Catholics, and all those Protestant ministers, Jewish Rabbis and Muslim Imams are really Catholics in disguise. Problem solved. The final solution is to kill all the Catholics.

Then we have this statement: When Ratzinger was a Cardinal, he helped conceal the severity of the problem. And this is the man that has the audacity to say that you are "wounded" in your beliefs if you do not acknowledge him?

Yes, the author now is an expert on theology, and knows more about interfaith dialog than any one else. So he can now state the intent and reason for the claim of "wounded" irregardless of its context: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,288976,00.html

Let just pretend again that the Pope (who is all Catholics after all), is again saying that, now not only all Muslims are evil (Exact quote from Manuel Il Paleologus, a Byzantine Emperor, not a pope):

Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached

Since he quotes a historical text to a CLASS on theology, he must have originated the quote, and firmly believes in it. Just like the statement he re-released recently that the experts in the media took to be a slam on protestant churches, instead of what it was. A re-statement of a working paper for the reconciliation of all Christian faiths. "The wound" that is talked about is reflected in the Popes belief that his faith is the right one. But as we can guess from these wanna-bee Theological experts in the mainstream media and elsewhere, ONLY Catholics believe that. All other people of faith must then believe that their faith is not the right one, and they are just waiting on a street corner for a bus to come along with a better one.

I guess we have 5 billion people that just cant wait to find a better creed and faith.

And finally we get to the last item. One corrected so many times, it truly boggles the mind that people would continue to perpetrate it. I guess some just love to revel in their ignorance instead of trying to discern the truth, or even seeking it. Even worse, when presented with the truth, they chose to ignore it, because ignorance is so much more fun. But for the record:

Pope ... ....always correct and infallible...

Is incorrect. The pope is only infallible when he goes Ex-cathedra, which means speaking for the faithful, and that has occurred only twice in the last 500 years. All the other times, he is speaking as the leader of the faithful - much like Bush speaks for all Americans (ha ha). He is the head teacher, as the role of priest has its roots in the Jewish faith, and that of the Rabbi - which means teacher, his words carry more weight than the other teachers and the students. But last I checked, no teacher is right all the time, and no man is either. And the Pope, outside of his role as head teacher, is just that. A man.

So please, slam those 1 billion plus Catholics for all these sins. We can even make a special place for them, since they are all evil and do only evil. But at least get your facts right when you are marching them to the gallows.

Comments (Page 4)

Dan Greene

on Jul 28, 2007

Big Problem Oversexification of life in general in the USA.

It's sad but true, and its not "sexs'" fault it sells, it's "sexs' fault we can't stop buying! Media, school, some workplaces, Television "OMFG have you watched this shit lately on TV" Sex is largely the only ratings grabber, that and "The Stars" because people are obsessed about style over substance. I can't go 15 min on cable tv on some channels without needing to switch or puke. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive to it but yuck.

Another Big Problem -Pedophiles and the internet-

More adults can reach more children online then in any other time and in any other way. This is a terrible combination for a society constantly "on the go" kids want to use the net for whatever, and learn about computers so they can be smart, they also get into trouble, parents want them to be safe, but smart, and to grow up. It can be a real danger area.

Big Problem --Catholic church history of protecting sex offenders--

For years, the catholic church in our country has elected to pray, and use God's divine intervention and moral ideals rather then strict commitment and execution of ethical judgment and action. These priests have been shuffled from community to community, allegations come up but unless it goes to court and a lot of times abusers get away with it because the church has lawyers and the culture didn't wanna believe for a long time this kind of activity was going on. Some of these bishops who did the shuffling are still in the church, the priests mostly with the culture today, one of revenge and justice and empowered by the hundreds of millions of dollar of settlements and trial awardings, are not sheltered by the church anymore. It is/was a systemic problem that should never have happened.

But it is also a problem in our society. We don't know how to rehab sex offenders any better then we do know how to rehab general criminal activity. Too much emphasis and resources are spent on the "doing the time" mentality rather then fixing the problem.

Its soooo much easier to setup a prison, the construction contracts, the jobs created to run it, the prisoners from another state being paid for housing by another state than to be proactive and counsel people; to develop programs to prevent them from committing acts of violence and to fund these programs rather then make money housing criminals. It's why a large chunk of our population sits in prison rather then produces for our society as productive members.

It's sad too because if the system was more interested in rehabbing people a lot of bishops may have made the decision to get the sick priests help rather then hope and pray they won't offend again somewhere else. Praying to God is a lot easier then turning someone in for a crime especially if you have the church hierarchy behind you when you do it.

Shame on the leadership, shame on the catholic church, but more then that, pay up for the crimes you have helped to commit by your actions and inactions. The whole thing is shameful and disgusting.

lulapilgrim

on Jul 28, 2007

Dan Greene posts:

I couldn't agree with you more. Ever since the sexual revolution of the 60's, our culture has been hyper-sexualized and we have been infected by the moral rot of it and must be constantly on guard to protect ourselves and our children from it's grip.

Big Problem --Catholic church history of protecting sex offenders--

It is/was a systemic problem that should never have happened.

All Catholics that I know deplore the moral depravity of child sex abuse. It's tragic beyond words and there is no justifying that as with any institution, the human element of the Chruch is capable of crime and sin.

Unfortunately, the pro-homosexual movement and the big media elites who loath the Catholic Church have hyped the sexual abuse of children to make it seem as though it's an exclusive Catholic problem.

Well, it isn't. The incidence of clergy sexual abuse isn't greater than that found in other sectors of society and this needs to be put in perspective. The data from nationwide studies clearly show that much sexual abuse of children occurs in the family, by babysitters, neighbors or relatives; is according to Penn State Philip Jenkins, author of Priests and Pedophiles, slightly higher among Protestant clergy and about the same among rabbis according to Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, a professor of law and ethics at Loyola Marymount University.

DAN GREENE POSTS:

These priests have been shuffled from community to community, allegations come up but unless it goes to court and a lot of times abusers get away with it because the church has lawyers and the culture didn't wanna believe for a long time this kind of activity was going on. Some of these bishops who did the shuffling are still in the church, the priests mostly with the culture today, one of revenge and justice and empowered by the hundreds of millions of dollar of settlements and trial awardings, are not sheltered by the church anymore.

Dan, how about the sex abuse children suffer in the public schools? Do you who think our children are safe and sound in public schools? Are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?

Professor Charol Shakeshaft of Hofstra University was commissioned by the US Dept. of Education to do a study on sex abuse in the public schools. Her 2004 report estimated that 10 % of students are victims of sexual misconduct by school officials ranging from sexual comments and advances to rape.

The numbers show that nationwide there are about 45 million school children grades K-12 and there are potentially over 4 million cases of child sexual abuse in government schools alone. Speaking conservatively, this means the sexual abuse of students is more than 100 times the abuse by priests. Why don't we hear about lawyers suing the schools?

One reason we don't is becasue it's far mor lucatrive to sue the Catholic Chruch or any church or private organization than it is to sue the local public school district. Most school districts enjoy sovereign immunity for incidents of sexual child abuse unless the state legislature says otherwise.

There is a process that has been carried out among schools called "passing the trash" where those accused of sexual abuse of students are transferred to other schools or districts and the new school is almost never informed about the sexual misconduct of the teacher being transferred.

After invesitgating public school employees, for anyone who is truly interested in protecting young people from sexual molestation, they should investigate Planned Parenthood whose staffers can provide leads on statuary rape that is indispensable.

Dr Guy

on Jul 30, 2007

For most of the general Public, there is a simple truth. The Church in general is held in a high regard and acknowledged for its stance, in general terms, on moral values etc. But, there comes a tipping point when many will begin to say "can it really still be the case?". The reason maybe grossly unfair, even widely inaccurate, hard luck, the Church is deservedly the acknowledged Leader on these values - Leaders must be Whiter than White and be seen to be setting an example or watch out. Life is unfair deal with it. The only way the Church will deal with this to the Publics satisfaction, and therefore preserve its deserved reputation, is to meet it head on, acknowledge the errors, and far far more important Do something about it. It has ignored the problem, or at best dealt with it inadequately, for arguably hundreds of years. It can no longer do the latter with impunity, neither can any institution, The Church is not alone in "The Dock".

YOur response overall is excellant. I wish I had set it (except being an atheist part since I am not). I especially like and agree with this paragraph. And should have stated my objections to the source of my angst with a similar retort. YOu get an insightful for this response. Thank you.

Dr Guy

on Jul 30, 2007

Shame on the leadership, shame on the catholic church, but more then that, pay up for the crimes you have helped to commit by your actions and inactions. The whole thing is shameful and disgusting.

And this goes back to one of my original points. Let's use a comparison, and change some words.

"Shame on the leadership of Germany for the Holocaust, Shame on the German People".

On one level we cheer and say "yes! get those b-tards"! And for the most part the leadership of Nazi Germany was made to pay - often with their lives - for that crime. But the call to make the entire German nation pay - with their lives - for the crimes of the leaders and some of the people is - taken to its logical conclusion - answering genocide with genocide. And that is right?

It is easy in the heat of the debate and the nature of the crime, to be swept up in the rhetoric. But we do need to calm down and get to the source of the problem - without condemning an entire people. If we are to convict all the people of a race, color, creed or gender for the crimes of some of them, then we might as well exterminate the human race. for we all - every man woman and child - is in some way associated with a person, or persons that is guilty of heinous crimes.

So after we decide to burn all women for being witches, let us stop this fiery rhetoric and start addressing the problem. And quit calling for the annhilation of segments of society. Let's get the guilty, and quit condemning the innocent.

Dan Greene

on Jul 30, 2007

"Dan, how about the sex abuse children suffer in the public schools? Do you who think our children are safe and sound in public schools? Are you aware of this and if you are, are you just as outraged?"

I am yes, however I tend to believe that in the past it was much more likely in the church that a priest would be rotated between communities while in public schools, staff would be brought to the authorities. Families also go looking for money and lawsuits much easier against public officials then they do with religious organizations. Thats a generalization but I think it's valid when you consider just how people feel about being characterized in their religious community vs the public one.

"There is a process that has been carried out among schools called "passing the trash" where those accused of sexual abuse of students are transferred to other schools or districts and the new school is almost never informed about the sexual misconduct of the teacher being transferred."

I've never known of this, not to say it doesn't happen just never been exposed to it. Also, never been in a school district where it appeared to happen or be happening.

"quit calling for the annhilation of segments of society."

Who have I called for to be annhilated? Terrorists? I've suggested it is the churches fault for not adopting a policy of ethics rather then a code of morals that would allow abusers access and continued ability to abuse. Not homosexuals, not Nazis but Catholics and those who support them. I'm not a Catholic, if I ever was, I am not anymore, I'm not really affiliated with any organized religion, surprised?

Abusers are criminals and enablers of criminals are no less criminal. There are plenty of bishops who were in full knowledge and who made decisions to protect abusers against claims, to shadow these guys and pass em along to other places. The cardinals knew of this and evidently approved allowing some priests back into posistions rather then expelling them and turning them over to authorities for criminal prosecution. Bernard Law of Massachusetts for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Francis_Law#Sexual_abuse_scandal

So you have the abusers, you got the first level protecting them, you have the second level directing the first level, and the moral and ethical corruption from cardinals on down, cardinals, bishops, priests. How sad for both society and the Catholic church.

Dr Guy

on Jul 30, 2007

Who have I called for to be annhilated?

I made my statement quite generic, and not pointing fingers at anyone for a reason. I beleive you are not calling for that, but your rhetoric says otherwise, and based upon the totality of your writing on this subject, I dont think that is your intention.

It is a matter of semantics, and I thought the analogy would point that out. Yes, call for the condemnation and the conviction of the guilty. But do not call for the condemnation and conviction of the "Church". The Church contains those who should be condemned and convicted - as well as a billion other people that are not at fault and who have been working to root out the problem as well. When you use the over encompassing term of "the Church", you are including all, not just the guilty. I do not even have a problem with condemning "the Leadership of the Church" since it is their inaction - or in some cases action - that has allowed this situation to continue and reach the stage it is at today. But it is the laity (and some of the leadership) that has rooted it out and is calling for the heads of the guilty and they are as much a part of the Church as are the leaders and the guilty.

Dan Greene

on Jul 30, 2007

"But do not call for the condemnation and conviction of the "Church". The Church contains those who should be condemned and convicted - as well as a billion other people that are not at fault and who have been working to root out the problem as well."

I agree there have been people working against allowing this to continue to happen in the future, however after a pattern of acceptance and a strategy to deal with the problem while keeping the abusers in the organization is inexcusable.

It is not just those guilty of the crime of abuse, it's the enablers of that abuse who have been protected by the church and who have done exactly that, enable abuse.

No organization should be given a pass just because there are good people in it. The Nazi's should have been eliminated even though there were people like Oscar Shindler in the organization that disagreed with the treatment of Jews. I'm not suggesting a elimination of the church. Only a purging of those members who abused people and for those there is evidence they enabled it. This Cardinal Law, along with dozens if not hundreds of Bishops and Cardinals were "enablers". They stand just as guilty of criminal acts as accessories do to crimes? Am I wrong about that?

This is/was not an isolated occurance, but a pattern of behavior that lasted decades.

lulapilgrim

on Jul 30, 2007

This Cardinal Law, along with dozens if not hundreds of Bishops and Cardinals were "enablers". They stand just as guilty of criminal acts as accessories do to crimes? Am I wrong about that?

By now this abominable scandal has been blown wide open. The arm of the civil law has been/still is in the thick of it. Attorneys have sued everyone who is within the law as far as crimes committed and those who are accessories to those...all that process is working itself through even as I write this.

The Church has a Code of Canon law that already contains a judicial process for the dismissal of those religious guilty of enabling priests guilty of sexually abusing minors.

I might remind you that the vast majority of priests and bishops are honest, trustworthy, faithful servants of Christ and are terrific ministers to His people.

Gideon MacLeish

on Jul 30, 2007

I've never known of this, not to say it doesn't happen just never been exposed to it.

It happens in almost every sector of employment, Dan. When I worked in the group homes, a manager who had embezzled thousands from the residents went to a competing agency and management shrugged her off. It was no longer THEIR problem.

I can also tell you of a school district where a female teacher took male students to live with her over the years (she was married, as well), and reports of her *ahem!* actions filtered back to the schools. The students who were victims of her actions were called liars and threatened with expulsion for spreading the rumours, leading to at least one suicide. After several years, her actions were proven and the teacher was finally charged. In the intervening years, the school never even investigated.

And have you honestly never heard tales of the "butch" female gym teacher? While some of these stories may be apocryphal, are you aware that our casual dismissal of them as such is EXACTLY what we have roundly and rightly criticized the Catholic church for doing regarding their priests?

As was said before, part of the behaviour pattern of pedophiles is to put themselves in positions where they have access to children.

Dr Guy

on Jul 31, 2007

it's the enablers of that abuse who have been protected by the church and who have done exactly that, enable abuse.

I beleive I addressed that issue with the following statement:

I do not even have a problem with condemning "the Leadership of the Church" since it is their inaction - or in some cases action - that has allowed this situation to continue and reach the stage it is at today

Dr Guy

on Jul 31, 2007

I might remind you that the vast majority of priests and bishops are honest, trustworthy, faithful servants of Christ and are terrific ministers to His people.

Which is my point in writing this to begin with, and none have yet charged that my point was false or invalid.

Dr Guy

on Jul 31, 2007

As was said before, part of the behaviour pattern of pedophiles is to put themselves in positions where they have access to children.

Another point I tried to make, that until now, everyone has ignored. Thank you for restating it.

Dan Greene

on Aug 01, 2007

First, I didn't say I haven't heard about "butch" female gym teacher(s). Big deal, 10-20% of the population is homosexual, get over it. My question to you is, Why bring it up? Where is the relevance? What the bulk of homosexuals and heterosexuals are not, are pedophiles. A persons SEXUAL ORIENTATION, is not the issue when it comes to priests, educators, or gym teachers.

Secondly stop putting words into my mouth or on the screen, implying that I meant that. For the record what I did say was this...

"I've never known of this, not to say it doesn't happen just never been exposed to it. Also, never been in a school district where it appeared to happen or be happening."

Again I'm speaking from my experience you are obviously speaking of yours when you write.

"After several years, her actions were proven and the teacher was finally charged. In the intervening years, the school never even investigated."

"The students who were victims of her actions were called liars and threatened with expulsion for spreading the rumours, leading to at least one suicide."

It is regrettable they didn't get it right before someone decided to commit suicide. That was their choice however and though is it unfortunate, nobody forced them to commit suicide. Teenagers and young adults lead the demographic on suicide. Obviously they did investigate it to some extent if they determined that the children were lying rather then being truthful.

Not every situation like this goes to a 12 person jury trial right? In this case it sounds like an isolated individual and any employment agency has an ethical responsibility to continue to employ someone as they are assumed innocent of any crime until evidence exists to prove the contrary. I am not sorry to say that that evidence has to be more then hearsay.

I'm not here to advocate our judicial system always works which is why organizations need to be proactive against abusers. Considering just how much more often children as students are in contact with educators versus priests and children, I'm sure a public institution is infinitely more cautious in this day and age then the church was forced to be because of their adopted policy to rotate "the trash".

Getting back to your comment about "the butch" gym teacher. Homosexuals are a productive and important part of society just like heterosexuals. Their SEXUAL ORIENTATION is of no concern to students, and nor should it be unless they make it an issue. Pedophiles are a different story but just because someone is a homosexual, does not make them a pedophile. Just because someone is a man, does not make them an abuser.

The fact is there are plenty of priests who were not pedophiles but who were aware of allegations of abuse at the hands of other priests, who had to fill in new communities because of these circumstances, there sure as hell are plenty of bishops and cardinals, the hierarchy of the church, who went along with this rotating of abusers, as is evidenced by the multi million dollar law suits falling the way of the abused weekly in this country.

As for all sectors of employment, most preform background checks on the status of their employees. Does the catholic church? I don't know I'm not an employee of them.
Any sector where adults are going to be working with children have an ethical responsibility protect them.

It is a crime to abuse someone, but it is also a crime to allow it to continue when you are in a position of power to stop it. It's a crime of ethics to allow those people who did not act in their power to stop this behavior to continue to be a part of your organization.

The reason the catholic church doesn't expel these people is because they have a man power shortage that is worse than the Army. For that reason I do condemn the Catholic church. So hate me if you want, damn me to hell, my ethical conscience is clear. Many men and women in the church cannot say the same and are depending on their faith in God to get them a pass in heaven. I hope for their sake God is as forgiving as they make him out to be.

Background checks are key and a smart solution to the problem of pedophiles. Treatment and lock up for offenders also.

stevendedalus

on Aug 13, 2007

Srong defense, doc. Congratulations. Btw, did the "esteemed member" mention that there were thousands of Catholics at Hiroshima in '45?

Dr Guy

on Aug 13, 2007

Srong defense, doc. Congratulations.

Thank you. No mention was made of Hiroshima (or Nagasaki). I have no problem in pointing out the sins of members of the Catholic Church - indeed I have on occassion as well. It is not something to be proud of, but not something to hide either. But when they attack "The Church" instead of the guilty, and then state "I hate THE Church" for the sins of the few and blaming the whole church for those sins, then yes I do have a problem. And to assign blame for incidents solely on the Church that are best assigned where they belong - the indifference of mankind in some cases, and the complicity of mankind (all, not just a part) in others, is problematic of how we can label a whole race, creed or religion with stereotypes and make it easier for some meglomaniac to swoop in and start a program of erradication.

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