Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.

I was thumbing through the WSJ op ed pages and came across a fascinating, from a thought provoking standpoint, piece.  The author is quoting one Lawrence Goldstone on what was a major sticking point on the constitution back in 1787. 

James Madison finally identified that all the sticking points really boiled down to what to do about slaves in the apportionment of Electoral Votes, Representation, and levies by the feds on the states.

The fascinating thing is that in coming to the eventual compromise of each slave would count as 3/5ths of a person, the North was essentially arguing that slaves were worthless, and the South was arguing for a worth and the fact that they were really people!  At least mostly.

In Mr. Goldstone's opining, southerners:

"who insisted that blacks were property, had to assert that they were at least partly people"

and Northerners:

"who regularly denounced the enslavement of their fellow man, had to acknowledge blacks as at least partly property."

In the ensuing years, when the south was vilified for owning slaves, it is noteworthy that in the beginning, the south seemed to be arguing for the greater humanity of slaves than the North.  The reason of course was economic.  But it is also noteworthy that a Massachsettes delegate, who railed against slavery, also wanted to tax the importation of slaves!

The founding fathers were a strong and ultimately wise bunch.  But the duplicity they had to argue for political reasons meant that 'politics as usual' has been going on since the founding of this country.


Comments
on Oct 20, 2005
"Politics as usual" in a Democracy is all about compromise. That's the whole point: nobody gets to have things entirely their way, without making any concessions to those who disagree.

Everybody has to give up something, in order to get along and in order to get something done.

Because of early compromises (note, for example, that the Bill of Rights was not part of the original Constitution), the American colonies were able to join together to "form a more perfect union". Not an entirely perfect union, of course, but a better union, something closer to the ideal.

And that union, once established, was then strong enough to support more controversy, more argument, and ultimately more compromises. The states that may not have joined if abolition had been a requirement found that once they were in, they could no longer opt out, and would have to accept abolition anyway.

Nobody likes having to compromise their own ideals. But nobody likes it when the opposition doesn't have to compromise its ideals. The genius of the democratic system is that it requires everybody to compromise their ideals.

What you call "politics as usual" is actually the only sensible solution to totalitarianism and tyrrany. It seems to me that the United States started off on exactly the right note.
on Oct 20, 2005

What you call "politics as usual" is actually the only sensible solution to totalitarianism and tyrrany. It seems to me that the United States started off on exactly the right note.

I would not go so far as to say exactly the right note, but it was a good start.  And I probably should have not included the 'politics as usual' as you missed my main point.  And that was, in order to come to the compromise, the north and south had to argue the exact opposite of what they wanted and believed.  That is what I found so intriguing and interesting.

Not that it does not happen, but the irony is so delicious as well as inflamatory for many.

on Oct 20, 2005
In fact, this is exactly the process we're witnessing in Iraq right now: several opposing factions, all bickering about how much each one is going to have to compromise. And have you noticed that over the last couple of years a pattern has emerged?

All the factions publicly refuse to compromise, and they all go right up to (and sometimes over) the deadline for compromise, with no indication that any agreement will ever be reached. And then, at the last minute (or even a couple days later), POW! Compromise, agreement, and forward progress.

Of course, it doesn't help our understanding of the process that the media hypes up the conflicts, and downplays the cooperation.
on Oct 20, 2005

Of course, it doesn't help our understanding of the process that the media hypes up the conflicts, and downplays the cooperation.

Yea, you think if we had the media then that we have today, we would be a nation?  Or a bunch of colonies still?

on Oct 20, 2005
Interesting question.

I think that the answer to your question will be revealed by what happens in Iraq in the next few years. Will it become a robust and stable nation, with today's media? Or will it devolve into a cluster of weak provinces, and be gobbled up by its neighbors?

Actually, I think the media won't really have much direct impact on the evolution of Iraq at all. Rather, I think that its impact will be indirect: draining away the will of America and other nations to see the thing through, and bring Iraq up to its full potential.

And you're right about me missing the main point of your article. It's a very interesting thing, and I think a perfect example of the genius of the democratic system. I think it's not so much that each faction was arguing the opposite of their ideals, but that in order to achieve some measure of their ideals, each faction had to concede some measure of the opposition's ideals.
on Oct 20, 2005

Actually, I think the media won't really have much direct impact on the evolution of Iraq at all.

I think you are right with Iraq only in that their media is not so negative.  And they dont hold a high opinion of the American Media.

 

on Oct 20, 2005
the founding fathers were both doc, in other words eminently HUMAN and all that entails.
on Oct 22, 2005
the founding fathers were both doc, in other words eminently HUMAN and all that entails.


I know, hence my title. But sometimes we start to think of them as alltruistic demigods. When in fact they were ordinary men that did an extraordinary thing.