Debate, and discuss, just dont Bore me.
Published on March 29, 2011 By Dr Guy In Current Events

PETA along with others would love for all people to forgo a diet of animals.  They think, preach, and advocate that man can live by bread alone.  Some even forgo animal by-products (that do not harm the animal, but instead are derived from them such as milk and cheese and chicken eggs). 

The problem is that man is not an herbivore.  Evolution has made some animals carnivores, some animals herbivores and some animals omnivores.  Man is the latter.  In order to sustain a healthy body, man has to ingest all food groups.  Or get sustenance from artificial means to supplement what he eliminates.

But do not tell that to the Vegans.  The most radical of the herbivore sect, they eschew anything to do with animals.  It has long been known that in order to exist on a Vegan diet, artificial vitamins must be taken.  The only natural source of B-12 is animals, and it is one of the essential vitamins for man.

Now, in France, a couple is being charged with murdering their child.  The reason?  The parents refused to eat any animals or animal by-products and apparently were ignorant of the vitamin deficiency issue.  in addition, they only allowed their baby breast milk for the 11 months of her life.  The child died of Vitamin A and B12 deficiency.

It is no longer a "life style choice".  It has now become a death method choice.  Perhaps these parents were just ignorant - and willing believers in a lie propagated by PETA and their ilk.  Or perhaps they were just another demented sect that feels the bottom of the evolutionary chain is man. 

Whatever reason, they killed their child due to a dangerous mindset that is apparently in vogue for the leisure class.  They want us to remove ourselves from nature since we are destroying it, not realizing that we are a part of it. 

A life lesson. Especially given a tangential religion out there - Anthropogenic Global Warming - Global Climate Change - Global Climate Disruption.

EDIT: responsible veganism - acknowledging that there are issues with eschewing any animal product - is not the issue.  But when you get zealots involved, that is where the danger comes in.  Texas Wahine offers this Qualifier which I think will temper this post and emphasize that it is about extremism, not mainstreamism.

 

Texas Wahine
I realize I am being repetitive, but I believe this is an important message (obviously not for the men on this thread, as I don't believe any of you are currently breastfeeding, , but for moms who may come across this thread in the future): Breastmilk is the optimal food for babies. Vegan moms can and should breastfeed. Vegan moms should keep an eye on their diets and monitor their infant's growth and health (as should all moms). Breastmilk can be complete nutrition for an infant all the way up to her first birthday. If a vegan mom is unwilling to feed herself appropriately, she should place her infant on soy formula, however, this is not as good a choice as a proper diet for mom and breastfeeding.


Comments (Page 1)
on Mar 29, 2011

It's rather funny though. Perhaps they should watch the Disney movie The Lion King. Maybe they can learn something from King Mufasa:

Mufasa: Everything you see exists together, in a delicate balance. As king, you need to understand that balance, and respect all the creatures-- from the crawling ant to the leaping antelope.

Simba: But, Dad, don't we eat the antelope?

Mufasa: Yes, Simba, but let me explain. When we die, our bodies become the grass. And the antelope eat the grass. And so we are all connected in the great Circle of Life.

Basically animals die and they become the grass, or the tomato, or the lettuce, or the greenbeans, or the bananas, watermelons, apples, grains, rice, etc. I am curious to know how exactly does anyone avoid eating animals when animals become the soil in which all plants grown and get their nutrients which actually comes from dead animals as well.

on Mar 29, 2011

CharlesCS
And the antelope eat the grass.

See, that shows you how stupid the herbivores are.  I smoke the grass.

But Disney was right - good quote there.  The problem with the North American Antelope (deer) population is that man removed all their natural enemies and then forbade their hunting - so the population has exploded.  Now, many states have open season on them just to control them.

PETA is messing with the cycle of life - and with grave results (no pun intended).

on Mar 29, 2011

A simple examination of man will reveal the truth in this matter. Binocular vision common amongst carnivores and omnivores, canine teeth and sharp incisors another commonality with non herbivores and the very fact that as you mentioned our digestive and nutrient gathering systems expect a meat diet to fulfill vital needs. Couple this with archaeological evidence showing that all ancient men used animal meat for food and animal skin for clothing and the only logical conclusion that you can make that humans were meant to use animal byproducts.

on Mar 30, 2011

Leinad0033
A simple examination of man will reveal the truth in this matter. Binocular vision common amongst carnivores and omnivores, canine teeth and sharp incisors another commonality with non herbivores and the very fact that as you mentioned our digestive and nutrient gathering systems expect a meat diet to fulfill vital needs. Couple this with archaeological evidence showing that all ancient men used animal meat for food and animal skin for clothing and the only logical conclusion that you can make that humans were meant to use animal byproducts.

providing evidence that the earth is over 4 billion years old to a fundamentalist Christian will get you nowhere.  Their mind is made up by a faith in their religion.

Providing cool reasoned logic on why man is an omnivore as you did is also lost on the faithful of PETA for the same reason.  They also believe in a religion, albeit a very deadly and destructive one.  And no amount of evidence will ever convince them otherwise.

I do not hope to sway them. I just hope to influence those thinking of joining their lifestyle.

on Apr 02, 2011

Two one-liners pop into my mind:  If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Vegetarian:  Old indian word for "poor hunter"...

on Apr 02, 2011
It is sad that a child died at the hands of stupid parents. As for eating meat, it is the natural way of things. All living things survive on the death of other living things. Herbivores survive by killing plants, the rest of us survive by killing plants, animals, or both. That is just the way nature works and we are part of nature whether certain nuts think so or not. We are built to eat both and it is perfectly natural that we so do. Necessary in fact. Our intelligence does not exempt us from our basic animal biology.
on Apr 02, 2011

Breastmilk is quite sufficient for many infants for the entire first year of life. The baby was obviously underweight and not well.  The problem is not inherently the diet of the infant or the mother but rather the parents' refusal to seek treatment to attempt to discover the cause of the infant's issues.

A vegan diet is not inherently unhealthy, nor is an exclusive diet of breastmilk for an infant unhealthy.  However, since the baby was ill and having growth issues, the parents should have sought medical assistance to determine the cause of the baby's illness and apparent malnutrition.  

It's a tragic situation.  

on Apr 03, 2011

Here are some helpful resources for vegan or vegetarian moms (or really, any moms) who are breastfeeding:

 

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mom/vegetarian.html

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/DHA-mother.html

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12.html

http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/lv/lvjunjul97p69.html

http://www.llli.org/nb/nbjulaug00p131.html

 

The overarching theme for vegan breastfeeding moms is B12 supplementation, not the addition of meat to the diet.  It is important for vegan moms to know and understand that they do not have to abandon their dietary preferences or philosophy in order to successfully breastfeed and nourish a child.  

 

(I am adding this not as argument but rather in case this comes up as a google search result for a mom who is looking for resources re: the compatibility of breastfeeding and veganism).

 

 

on Apr 04, 2011

Big Fat Daddy
Two one-liners pop into my mind:  If God didn't want us to eat animals, why did he make them out of meat?

Vegetarian:  Old indian word for "poor hunter"...

I have heard both - and both still make me smile!  Thanks for dredging up old memories.

on Apr 04, 2011

MasonM
Our intelligence does not exempt us from our basic animal biology.

That line should be tattooed on the forehead of every PETA nut.

on Apr 04, 2011

Texas Wahine
It's a tragic situation.

It is a tragic situation, but you failed to read the entire article.  The cause of death was due to a lack of vitamins A and B12.  The lack of vitamin A is an issue that should have been taken care of by the parents.  However, he lack of B12 was due to the deficiency of the mother's diet.  The only source of B12 for a vegan is artificial ones, that until recently had been made from animal products.

Texas Wahine
(I am adding this not as argument but rather in case this comes up as a google search result for a mom who is looking for resources re: the compatibility of breastfeeding and veganism).

A very good listing and resource.  Being a vegan is not bad as long as you understand the physiology of the diet - and what is necessary to live it.  My beef is with the groups that tout the diet without educating the adherents and thus are basically lying to the people.

on Apr 04, 2011

Texas Wahine
Here are some helpful resources for vegan or vegetarian moms (or really, any moms) who are breastfeeding:

 

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/mom/vegetarian.html

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/DHA-mother.html

http://www.kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/vitamin-b12.html

http://www.llli.org/llleaderweb/lv/lvjunjul97p69.html

http://www.llli.org/nb/nbjulaug00p131.html

 

The overarching theme for vegan breastfeeding moms is B12 supplementation, not the addition of meat to the diet.  It is important for vegan moms to know and understand that they do not have to abandon their dietary preferences or philosophy in order to successfully breastfeed and nourish a child.  

 

(I am adding this not as argument but rather in case this comes up as a google search result for a mom who is looking for resources re: the compatibility of breastfeeding and veganism).

 

 

 

Good of you to post it. Perhaps it might help prevent another needless tragedy.

on Apr 04, 2011

 

There was clear negligence by the parents.  The child was ill and malnourished and not receiving appropriate treatment for her illness nor proper nutrition.  This is not a "vegans suck" or "stupid PETA" issue (the parents were French, after all, not American).  The parents were negligent in several areas.  Many exclusively vegan moms successfully and exclusively nurse their infants for their first year of life (breastmilk only) and those infants thrive.  The mom in this case should have known there was a nutrition issue based on her daughter's size and ill health.  She also should have pursued effective treatments for her daughter's illness when her own preferred treatments were not working.  

It is very sad that this infant died because of the negligence of her parents.  I just want to be clear that veganism itself nor delayed introduction of solids are problematic for most breastfeeding moms.  An exclusive diet of breastmilk is ideal for infants.  Generally a mother's milk is ideal even when a mom is malnourished (example:  in countries where access to clean water is limited, and food is scarce, babies are less likely to die when breastfed rather than formula fed even though mom herself may be receiving poor nutrition).

Some vegan moms prefer soy based formula for their infants because they believe human milk to be an "animal product" while other vegan moms believe that because she can give consent to share her milk with her infant (and human milk is not dairy), her breastmilk can be considered vegan.  

Moms who are malnourished due to poor diet (such as the mom from France) may be better off giving their babies soy formula if they are unwilling to make dietary adjustments to achieve proper nutrition (and this need not mean including meat or animal sources).  

Any number of health professionals should have been able to assist this family to perhaps avoid this child's death.  Both vitamin A and B12 are obtainable through vegan sources such as nutritional yeast (B12) and orange and green veggies (Vitamin A).  Mom may have been genuinely ignorant about deficiencies in her diet (which does not excuse her absolute negligence in seeking assistance with a child who was obviously NOT thriving) or she may have realized but have been too lazy to make changes (which is more than negligent, it is criminal).

What is really important to me in this discussion, is making it clear that vegan moms can breastfeed and that exclusively breastfeeding beyond a year is absolutely healthy for many babies.  The case in France is unusual and vegan moms should be encouraged to eat a broad, healthy diet including B12 supplementation but that for healthy vegan moms breastmilk remains the optimal form of nutrition for their infants.

I realize I am being repetitive, but I believe this is an important message (obviously not for the men on this thread, as I don't believe any of you are currently breastfeeding, , but for moms who may come across this thread in the future):  Breastmilk is the optimal food for babies.  Vegan moms can and should breastfeed.  Vegan moms should keep an eye on their diets and monitor their infant's growth and health (as should all moms).  Breastmilk can be complete nutrition for an infant all the way up to her first birthday.  If a vegan mom is unwilling to feed herself appropriately, she should place her infant on soy formula, however, this is not as good a choice as a proper diet for mom and breastfeeding.

 

 

 

 

on Apr 04, 2011

And I am very long-winded on this topic.  Apologies.

on Apr 04, 2011

I should have added as well that breastmilk is naturally high in Vitamin A in properly nourished mothers and the perfect source of it for infants.

In malnourished mothers, Vitamin A levels are often half of what they are in a well nourished mother, which would require improved diet and/or supplementation.  Infants may also receive vitamin supplements when needed, to include supplements of vitamin A (in the form of a multivitamin -- drops).

And Re:  vitamin B12, for vegetarians who consume fish, clams are very high in B12 (higher than most animal meats other than organ meat) and for vegan moms fortified cereals include B12 from animal sources.  I'm not vegan but I'd personally find that to be a tastier source than the nutritional yeast.

 

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